Penalties should be reviewed.

Convicted Driver Insurance
Jaket

I've copied your comments below:

'As previously stated I am well aware that more people die as a result of speeding than as a result of drink driving. However far more people speed than drink drive. The deaths caused per drink driver are MUCH GREATER than deaths per speeder.'

Statistics evaluate deaths/accidents based on an equal number of drivers. Any research has to evaluate like numbers to prove its point. Research thus shows that, per driver on the road, those that speed/drive dangerously and so on, cause the most accidents and deaths on the road.

Jaket, you refer to the 'State' so I assume you live outside the UK. Maybe the statistics in your country differ to those in the UK.

All along I have not tried to defend drink driving but I do challenge the automatic ban of 12 months that applies in the UK.

My stance on sentencing does not indicate lack of remorse or respect for the law. What it indicates is the belief that everyone, regardless of their offence should be allowed to defend themselves fully in exactly the same way as anyone convicted of a criminal offence is allowed to do in the UK.

Drink drivers are not allowed that. It is in breach of their Human Rights but it was decided they were a special case in law so all rights were dismissed and effectively no defence is possible.

Everyone's circumstances are different and should be judged accordingly. If we don't allow that can we say the law treats everyone equally fairly?

If those who are the main perpetrators of deaths and injuries on our roads today were treated in the same way drink drivers are there would be few drivers on our roads. Consider the financial impact that would have on the country's coffers.

There aren't enough police to apprehend that number of offenders and the court system couldn't cope with such a high number of offenders in their courts each week. So despite that drink drivers now cause the least number of deaths and injuries on our roads they are nonetheless an easy target in comparison.

Anyone of you is more likely to be killed or injured on today's roads by someone who is sober than by a drunk driver, in the UK at least.

Most drivers don't consider speeding or dangerous driving as something bad or criminal according to research in the UK. Yet they are as equally aware as a drink driver that they're breaking the law, and equally hope they won't get caught or cause an accident and so on.

Read the 'stats' on breaking distances/reaction times and how at 30mph, which most people will think is quite slow, you are likely to kill someone when you hit them. At 40mph you will kill them. How many of you do over 30mph in that speed limit? You might be sober but do you check your speed? You might be sober most days you drive but if you break the speed limit you're most likely to be the cause of death or injury.

If the law won't be changed to give drink drivers the same justice as speeders et al, then all should be convicted the same way, i.e. first offence and you're banned.

But I will always maintain that everyone should be given the chance to fully defend themselves when convicted of any criminal offence.
 
lady driver, you knew, as did we all that drink driving carries a minimum ban of 12 months, you knew that and still drove whilst drunk, I knew it and still drove.after a skinful, I crashed my car on a bad bend on a fast road,.by the grace of god, noone was coming the other way, and the road was empty, or I would 100% killed someone, perhaps a family on there way home from a nice family day out. It could of been so much worse. I deserved my ban, when I got my licence I knew not to drink and drive, but I did so I deserve everything I got, stop bloody moaning and face up to your responibilities, if you live in a rural area with no public transport then even more reason not to abuse ypur licence.

5 days to go:D
 
LadyDriver said:
Jaket

I've copied your comments below:

'As previously stated I am well aware that more people die as a result of speeding than as a result of drink driving. However far more people speed than drink drive. The deaths caused per drink driver are MUCH GREATER than deaths per speeder.'

Statistics evaluate deaths/accidents based on an equal number of drivers. Any research has to evaluate like numbers to prove its point. Research thus shows that, per driver on the road, those that speed/drive dangerously and so on, cause the most accidents and deaths on the road.
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Totally disagree - the stats you have quoted are total accidents. They are not weighted to allow for the fact that there are thankfully very few people who drink drive. The FACTS are:

At 50% above the limit, your chances of being involved in a fatal or serious injury accident are five times higher than those of a completely sober driver. Twice the legal limit, and that figure rises to twenty times.


Jaket, you refer to the 'State' so I assume you live outside the UK. Maybe the statistics in your country differ to those in the UK.
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I am based in England. Much of the drink driving research was done in the US / the UK limits are based on US research done in the late 60's.


I firmly believe that the drink driving laws should stay as they are because they are saving lives - drink driving is declining. To be honest you have no hope of getting the penalties reduced - I believe if anything they will be increased and / or the drink drive limit reduced over the coming years.
 
My problem with the original post in this thread is the attempts to justify drink driving contained in it. These are the reasons you give for drink driving in your first post.


  • You had a problem with a violent man and wanted to ask someone else if they though the was violent.
  • Your business wasn't going well.
  • You hadn't eaten anything but a sandwich because you were too busy, but you had time to go and buy champagne and drink some of it on an empty stomach.
  • Your car got vandalised two weeks earlier.
  • You were in an unfamiliar area so you thought you didn't have to indicate and so the cop shouldn't have stopped you.
  • You never eat mints.
  • Your car key battery was low.
Can you see how daft this sounds when you weigh it up against the possibility of you causing an accident because you were drunk and killing someone who hadn't done anything wrong? Someone who may never have eaten a mint in their life? Someone whose car key battery was even lower than yours?

I'm afraid that this sort of attempt to justify drink driving just makes you sound like someone who thinks the law doesn't apply to them and who has learned nothing from being caught drink driving.
 
sretosf - the stats are from the UK Department of Transport's most recent data. They show the number of accidents/deaths are now caused by speeding, dangerous, careless drivers. Go to their website if you need clarification.

'What was I Thinking' says, I crashed my car on a bad bend on a fast road. There is no such thing as a 'fast road', it's up to the driver how fast he/she drives on any road. So was he/she speeding as well as being drunk? We don't have to drive up to the limit for a road and certainly shouldn't drive beyond the limit that applies. Neither are there 'bad' bends. Road signs warn of bends so we can slow down accordingly and get through them safely. With the perception there are 'fast roads and bad bends' is it any wonder why speeding/dangerous/careless drivers are the main cause of road accidents and deaths?

How many here were regular drink drivers who pushed their luck until they got caught? If you were one of those I can see why you support the mandatory ban. If you were a first time drink drive offender who could prove in court it was out of character why should you be given the same penalty? No other criminal offenders are denied justice in the way first time drink drivers are.

I won't respond in the same, derogatory way some have to me on this site by calling me stupid and so on. I did not know by the way that a 12 month mandatory ban applied for a convicted drink driver. I had no reason to know before now. I still don't know as yet where that fact is advertised and whether every driver is aware of it.

I maintain, if the law is to be equal for everyone then drink drivers should be allowed to plead their case in court, without restriction, just as anyone charged with a criminal offence is allowed to do.

Furthermore, I will continue to pursue my petition that banning a first time drink drive offender for 12 months without allowing for mitigating circumstances is not the best way forward in every case. A shorter ban coupled with a suspended sentence would deter any normally law abiding driver from even thinking of breaking the drink/drive law again.

You all might not ever have even one drink when driving after your ban but if you don't have your speed in check at all times you're as lethal as you were with drink inside you. And if you're going to get killed or badly hurt on the road it's going to be by someone who was sober but out of control for other reasons. And then the police will have to go to tell your loved ones that some sober idiot killed their husband/wife/child.
 
When I said a fast road I meant a 60 mph road, the point I was making was I would of anticipated the bend in the road a lot better if I was sober, I shouldn't of been on the road full stop. You fight your petition all you want love, if wont (and shouldn't) make any difference. And as for turning your nose up at what I said about bad bends and fast roads, why were you driving your car whilst drunk? To go and talk to someone about a violent man????????ok..... Why were you pulled over? Failing to indicate??? Both actions im sure would of been different if you were sober.
Enjoy your ban, mines up friday!
 
The suggestion that people here who support a mandatory ban must be regular drink drivers who just happen to have been caught speaks volumes about your attitude and also blows big holes in your own argument.

You think that you have licence to assume that we're habitual offenders despite having no evidence to support that. In the overwhelming majority of cases described on this forum there has been some kind of unusual event leading to an out of character mistake being made. You can also see genuine remorse and shame here in spades.

When someone who believes they're somehow above the law comes along the tone of the thread is quite different. You make sweeping judgements with one breath and then say that the courts shouldn't ban you for your first offence with the next. If the courts had your attitude, they would assume that you drink drive every day and this is just the first time you've been caught.

What's more, a person charged with drunk driving gets to go to court and gets to plead their case. All you have to do is plead "not guilty" and it begins. You have the same rights in court as a person charged with anything else. Again, your argument is based on thin air.

I believe that the reason you're encountering some unkind words (I know that my posts to you will come across that way and I stand by them) is because you refuse to accept that you did anything wrong and are instead blaming everyone you can think of who isn't you.

You must surely have some courage in you somewhere. Have the courage to admit that you made a mistake and take the punishment on the chin. I honestly think you'd be a lot happier.
 
LadyDriver said:
sretosf - the stats are from the UK Department of Transport's most recent data. They show the number of accidents/deaths are now caused by speeding, dangerous, careless drivers. Go to their website if you need clarification.
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LadyDriver - I can only assume at this stage that you don't want to accept the fact that drink driving is more dangerous than speeding. Several posters have already pointed out the stats to you but for one last time:

Yes more people die as a result of speeding than as a result of drink driving - that is accepted.

However only a very small number of people drink and drive. A lot of people speed. The number of people killed per drink driver is far greater than the number of people killed per 'speeder'. It should also be noted that some of the 'speeders' are drinkers.

The bottom line is that States / Governments across the world are not irrationally anti-drink driving. Drink driving is leathal and you got the punishment you deserve when you were caught. Move on from it - and please just don't do it again. I have suffered enough because of people like you ie drink drivers who have no remorse as opposed to people who just made a mistake.................
 
'What was I thinking' - My comments on 'fast' roads and 'bad' bends were statements of fact. How you interpret what I write is up to you.

I haven't suggested that drinking and driving is wrong or that people shouldn't be punished if they do, neither do I suggest I should not have been banned for at least some time.

What I do suggest is the automatic 12 month ban should be reviewed. I've given reasons in previous notes why I believe that, based on my belief that if the Law is to be equal for anyone convicted of a criminal offence, drink drivers should be allowed to present mitigating cirumstances in the same way someone convicted of any criminal offence is allowed to do, which includes murderers and so on.

If drink drivers were allowed to defend themselves in Court, which they effectively are not, that would weed out those who are serial offenders from those who made one mistake out of character. In any other criminal case Courts are allowed to weigh up the circumstances/evidence and sentence accordingly, which seems sensible and appropriate.

If you read Sir Peter North's report on drink driving you'll see that most of those convicted of drink driving are repeat offenders and the majority of offenders are in the age group of 24 - 30. Drink drivers still though cause the least number of accidents/deaths on our roads today.

Speeding isn't a criminal offence (see Home Office website) despite the Department for Transport pointing out that it is the cause of most deaths on our roads (worrying lack of communication between those government departments). So speeders are not given the same justice as drink drivers. Speeders can claim mitigating circumstances when brought to Court and may therefore avoid a ban, but the maximm ban is still just 6 months. And it's only when they've accumulated 12 or more points on their licence, which can be over a 3 year period, that they'll be brought to Court. Is it any wonder then why speeding is the biggest killer?

I will continue to argue that someone found drink driving who made a mistake for the first time with an otherwise clean record, in all respects, should be allowed to properly defend themselves in a Court of Law and that sentencing guidelines should be amended to allow for that. I'm not a Human Rights activist but as I stated earlier, somewhere along the line drink drivers were effectively denied the right to defend themselves in a court of law; that seems wrong.

I'll reiterate for those who haven't understood my messages (and yes that sounds arsey to any delicate flowers) that I'm not suggesting we shouldn't have a ban for drink drivers but that a 12 month mandatory ban should not be the starting point. Shorter bans coupled with a suspended prison sentence would often provide enough deterrent for normally law abiding people.

Read my words. I'm not proposing overall removal of a ban of some sort. Nor do I condone drink driving, or have lack of remorse for what I did. My approach is the Law should allow equal defence by all convicted of a criminal offence.

If we don't allow that for all we don't have true justice.

You are most likely to be killed or injured in your car, or as a pedestrian, today, tomorrow or any time soon by a speeding/dangerous/careless driver who is sober. You might even be the cause if you're driving over the speed limit or maybe talking on your mobile while you drive.

Speeders make the choice to drive fast when they know they shouldn't, just as drink drivers drive when they know they shouldn't. Those distracted by using their 'phone while driving (common despite the 'ban') are not in control of their car, like drink drivers. You don't have to be drunk to be out of control of your car and drive dangerously, as the Many thanks for your comments. stats show.

You all feel you were rightly punished, and only you know why. I disagree with the sentencing system for first time drink drivers having looked at various statistics on causes and so on. Having a go at me might give you some sort of distorted pleasure, it's of no consequence to me.

Please don't respond anyone if all you wish to do is try to point out further why drink driving is wrong or call me stupid. None has chosen to debate the point I put forward.

That being the case there's nothing further to be said between us.
 
LadyDriver said:
You all feel you were rightly punished, and only you know why.
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Nope I don't drink and drive so never been punished for it.

I feel you were rightly punished because drink driving is dangerous and the 12 month ban is well publicised.

Anyway like you say there is no point discussing this further - you have now got a criminal record and I only hope that despite your lack of remorse for your crime that you don't also end up becoming a repeat offender.
 
jaket said:
the 12 month ban is well publicised.
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I didn't know about it & was banned for 12 months.

If they advertised this at christmas it would be more effective than showing car crashes.

I still disagree with the 12 month mandatory ban for readings under 50 & the insurance scam that comes after, I'm less likely to drink & drive now than before my ban.
 
Trigger3 said:
I didn't know about it & was banned for 12 months.
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I am a bit surprised at this - are you saying you didn't know the ban would be for 12 months or that you didn't realise you would face a ban at all?

The Govt did cutback on the 2010 drink drive campaign due to the deficit however the last campaign did focus on the consequences of drink driving for the driver who was caught. The adverts featured a barman asking 'what will it be then sir?' and then acting out all the people the customer would deal with if he made the wrong decision ie Police, Magistrates, Employer, Parents etc.

Here is a link - just watched it and it does specifically mention a 12 month ban......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3za8pC_0OY
 
Trigger3 said:
I still disagree with the 12 month mandatory ban for readings under 50 & the insurance scam that comes after, I'm less likely to drink & drive now than before my ban.
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There is between a 20% and 30% chance that you will reoffend so you should reasonably expect an increase in insurance premiums. I can't comment on whether or not the insurance companies then load the premiums further.

Given that if you are twice the legal limit then you are 20 times more likely to have an accident and there is a say 25% chance you will reoffend then you might expect to pay x5 the normal premium ~ possibly a bit more to cover the fact that accidents following drink driving tend to be more serious (expensive) than the average accident......
 
Some have suggested I show no remorse or realisation of the danger I posed. As a reminder, if you commented without full reading of my messages, see below:

'And I do feel ashamed for what I did, which is another intent of the ban though those who have no regard for the law wouldn't feel that. Those people are most likely to re – offend and more often offend in the first place.

On one day in an otherwise safe and legal driving career I made a grave mistake and I realise I could have hurt or killed someone. Thankfully I didn't.'

What led Jaket, who doesn't drink and drive, to find and make comment on this site? Or to ignore what I wrote previously when making his comments about me? Let's hope he's not of the sort who seek ways of condemning others while not being totally squeaky clean in all aspects of his life; few of us could say we are whatever our transgressions. Suggesting I've shown no remorse because it doesn't fall into line with what others perceive as remorse could be perceived as bigoted. But see my comments above.

Regarding road deaths/accidents, I've looked at various data, one example below.
http://www2.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/accidents/casualtiesgbar/rrcgb2009.html

My argument is not that drink/driving is wrong or that it shouldn't be punished. My argument is the Law should be eqaul for all convicted of a criminal offence, which it is not in the case of drink drivers given the mandatory ban that applies.

During the eighteen months I drove to and from my business it is no exaggeration to say my safety, and that of fellow road users, was daily put at risk from speeding and dangerous drivers, the majority of who would not though have failed a breath test. They had no regard for my safety or that of the others on the roads around them. Their actions are no less reckless than that of drink drivers. Stats show most drivers don't see speeding as being a bad thing (and of course it's not a criminal offence at present) and if they do get caught they know they'll just get points on their licence, assuming they haven't killed someone. So, unlike those who made a one time bad judgement to drink and drive, and don't make a habit of it, the majority of those who now kill and maim most on our roads see their habit as acceptable and keep doing it day after day.
I've often had v signs given to me by drivers overtaking who feel I'm driving too slowly (even tho' I've been driving to the speed limit),tail gating (very dangerous) is a regular occurence as is overtaking on double white lines. The number seen using mobiles when driving is large and not unusually while the driver is negotiating a turn, or roundabout or other manoeuvre that is hazardous. And they are all probably sober when they do these things. And it's why drink drivers are no longer the main cause of accidents and deaths on our roads.
 
LadyDriver said:
And it's why drink drivers are no longer the main cause of accidents and deaths on our roads.
Click to expand...

From the stats you have posted a link to:

2,222 people were killed on the roads in 2009
380 were killed in drink driving related accidents

Don't you get it? 17 percent (almost 1 in 5) deaths on our roads are caused by the very few people who drink and drive.

To be honest you are getting boring now - you are a criminal who has risked other peoples lives. You got caught so you just need to accept your punishment and move on. If you ignore my advice and get caught drink driving again then you face a 3 year ban and prison.
 
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