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price1367 said:
I agree that 'sensitive material' is often a case of "put up or Shut up." The prosecution do abandon cases rather than disclose details of informants etc.
The description of the duty solicitor as "a servant of the court" is correct, but that also applies to ALL solicitors attending court. In this context, a "servant" is someone who is there to assist the magistrates with coming to a proper conclusion in a case. All solicitors should assist in an open and fair way. The same should apply to police Officers.
Mind you, I am quoting what is expected of solicitors and police, not what actual practice is.
I recently had 2 people on a course who had both had the same solicitor. One paid £500 as a private client. The other turned up and asked for the duty solicitor and got his free 5 minutes worth. They were both happy with the advice they were given, but I always suggest that a solicitor is not going to explore anything other than "were you driving." "were you over the limit" and "how will the disqualification affect you" in that limited time. They are not going to pick up on the subtleties that can become a good defence in the non standard cases.
They will often only give advice only, rather than go into court to address the magistrates for you. This is because they receive a fee from the Legal Aid Board for being there for the day ( £150, last time I looked, probably gone up now) but they can only claim an extra fee for addressing the magistrates in cases where there is a substantial risk of custody, which does not apply to most drink driving offences. If they do go into court, it is out of 'the goodness of their heart'... and you being given a business card for any future offence where you need help.
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Price1367, I was not going to reply because everything you say is correct. However on post number "50" of this thread on which I assume you are replying to. It was not a case of the courts duty solicitor representing me. It was a case of a firm of solicitors who in 2011 were rated one of only 2 Band One crime firms in the South West, and that David Campbell, David Fanson and Tim Rose were named as three out of the four leading lawyers in the South West. Garry Crowther was also one of only eleven lawyers in the region to make the Chambers rankings . I will not name the firm on this forum but over 95% of there work is covered by legal aid.

What I was trying to explain in post number 50 was that, had I not been on legal aid and also not been cocky to my solicitor, then perhaps my solicitor would of or should of advised me that if "No prosecution witnesses had turned up". Then a not guilty plea was bound to succeed. Instead he still encouraged a guilty plea. Considering the crime carried 14 years imprisonment and I got an 8 week curfew plus £150 costs, I guess I cant complain. Plus remember my last sentence in post number "50"!!! It is something none of us will ever know the answer to.
 
If only we had a degree in hindsight, we would be able to represent ourselves and save a lot on money that is thrown at solicitors.....
That is why it is good that you share your experience with others on here, even though you are not benefiting yourself.
I know how things SHOULD work, you have seen what really happens!
 
bristol.red said:
Well all I can say is I am baffled on how the CPS can use a copper as a courier to hand you "Advanced disclosure papers". I can understand that your solicitor took it off you. If it had been me, I would of told the solicitor to go and ask the copper to go and get him his own copy or to ask the CPS to give him a copy. You should of said,"THIS COPY IS MINE, NOW IF YOU WANT A COPY YOU CAN GO AND USE THE COURTS PHOTOCOPIER AND PHOTOCOPY MINE, or GO AND ASK THE COPPER TO GO AND GET ANOTHER COPY PHOTOCOPIED FROM THE CPS SOLICITORS COPY".

I still think you are having a laugh, it is certainly making me laugh and some good is coming out of this thread too.
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Well all I can say is that I am amazed that there was even a police officer in court. In my area, unless there is a contested case, there are NO police there on duty at all now, it is all down to private security and the usher.
I remember the days when a police officer was always on duty outside the court, to make sure that everyone was at least 14 yrs old, and that ladies had their head covered before they could go into the viewing gallery....
 
price1367 said:
I remember the days when a police officer was always on duty outside the court, to make sure that everyone was at least 14 yrs old, and that ladies had their head covered before they could go into the viewing gallery....
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price1367, I am beginning to think you are a lot older than me!! What year did women stop needing to have their heads covered? Must of been long before Thatcher (The Witch's)"days!!

PS or were women ok and it was just ladies who needed their heads to be covered?
 
I can't be sure when it stopped being a requirement for females, AND ladies, to have heads (and shoulders) covered, but it was part of my duties at Worcester Crown Court to check this in about 1974 - 75 so yes, B.T. (Before Thatcher)..... even before J.C. :)
 
price1367 said:
I can't be sure when it stopped being a requirement for females, AND ladies, to have heads (and shoulders) covered, but it was part of my duties at Worcester Crown Court to check this in about 1974 - 75 so yes, B.T. (Before Thatcher)..... even before J.C. :)
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Wow, until you just posted this post, I was unaware that little Worcester even had a crown court. See how even the fun post's teach us things. If my memory serves me right, my 1st crown court appearance was in February 1976 and I was already on remand in custody. So I do not know what was happening outside the court room because I was brought up from the cells and got given my apprenticeship of Borstal training 6 months - 2 years. I did 14 months cause I was a naughty boy:D. If my memory serves me right, Borstal training was 9 months to 3 years back in the 50's & possibly the 60's.
 
Thinking back, Crown Courts only started in 1974, prior to that the 'higher' courts were called the Assize court, which did not sit continuously.
It may have been on the change over to the 'modern' crown courts that led to the old dress styles being phased out.
I used to escort young offenders to Pucklechurch Remand Centre near Bristol. Now HM Prison Ashfield. I used to advise them to be very respectful as the staff were not going to take any nonsense, some listened, some just had to try and make an impression..... boy did they get a shock!
 
price1367 said:
I used to escort young offenders to Pucklechurch Remand Centre near Bristol.!
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FFs, this explains it all, I had a feeling I knew you from somewhere. I spent many months going back and forth to Pucklechurch every week in my teenager days. I once got an orderlies job and use to go over to the women's prison side. I was going through adolescence and remember an older lad explaining why the broom handles on the women's side were shaped square!!! :D
 
price1367 said:
Well all I can say is that I am amazed that there was even a police officer in court. In my area, unless there is a contested case, there are NO police there on duty at all now, it is all down to private security and the usher.
I remember the days when a police officer was always on duty outside the court, to make sure that everyone was at least 14 yrs old, and that ladies had their head covered before they could go into the viewing gallery....
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Their was four police on duty outside the court rooms shouting out names and passing the papers out.
 
bristol.red said:
Well all I can say is I am baffled on how the CPS can use a copper as a courier to hand you "Advanced disclosure papers". I can understand that your solicitor took it off you. If it had been me, I would of told the solicitor to go and ask the copper to go and get him his own copy or to ask the CPS to give him a copy. You should of said,"THIS COPY IS MINE, NOW IF YOU WANT A COPY YOU CAN GO AND USE THE COURTS PHOTOCOPIER AND PHOTOCOPY MINE, or GO AND ASK THE COPPER TO GO AND GET ANOTHER COPY PHOTOCOPIED FROM THE CPS SOLICITORS COPY".

I still think you are having a laugh, it is certainly making me laugh and some good is coming out of this thread too.
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bristol red i am totally honest that everything i have written is the truth. now for the next bit that when i went for finger printing they had no wipes for me to clean my hands so the officer told me they have magical cleaner for me jeizer industrial degreaser so the officer asked me to cup my hand while he poured from the tin in to my hands... 3days later my hands dried up and skin has peeled off and still peeling to date now would this affect my case? honestly no lies! i looked up the safety sheet for the degreaser and said gloves should be worn.
 
andy mac said:
bristol red i am totally honest that everything i have written is the truth. now for the next bit that when i went for finger printing they had no wipes for me to clean my hands so the officer told me they have magical cleaner for me jeizer industrial degreaser so the officer asked me to cup my hand while he poured from the tin in to my hands... 3days later my hands dried up and skin has peeled off and still peeling to date now would this affect my case? honestly no lies! i looked up the safety sheet for the degreaser and said gloves should be worn.
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These details are irrelevant to your case. You could however make a complaint if you desire to do so.
 
andy mac said:
3days later my hands dried up and skin has peeled off and still peeling to date now would this affect my case? honestly no lies! i looked up the safety sheet for the degreaser and said gloves should be worn.
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I think you should get down to A&E immediately, it sounds like all health & safety rules have been broken.

When you get all your compensation please invite me, price1367 and any other contributors to a hotel near you and we can all have a big piss up and a nice fry up the following morning. If there is any change out of just £1000 u spend on the party, contribute it to the forum to help others:):D ...Lets keep our diaries open for a date in approx 5 years time.;)
 
Andy-mac,
I don't recognise the brand 'Jeizer' for a degreaser. In the days when we used ink for fingerprinting (long since replaced with electronic scanning) we used swarfega to clean hands, the roller and the ink pad. That is a well recognised product, used in the motor industry for years. There is nothing wrong in using a degreaser to help clean your hands, I am not sure how you think it will help your drink drive case when, after the procedure has finished, and you have blown in the machine, they get you to use a degreaser to clean your hands.
Stick to what has been discussed here, as this is where your defence rests.
 
price1367 said:
Andy-mac,
I don't recognise the brand 'Jeizer' for a degreaser. In the days when we used ink for fingerprinting (long since replaced with electronic scanning) we used swarfega to clean hands, the roller and the ink pad. That is a well recognised product, used in the motor industry for years. There is nothing wrong in using a degreaser to help clean your hands, I am not sure how you think it will help your drink drive case when, after the procedure has finished, and you have blown in the machine, they get you to use a degreaser to clean your hands.
Stick to what has been discussed here, as this is where your defence rests.
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its jizer industrial degreaser go to screwfix and check the data sheet. ha ha i no i said that the police station was as old as the hills i got inked fingers, palms and side of hands inked. well i think its going to come down to my word against theirs i need things that i report to be true so that it makes me look less of a lier when they say they never said anything to dissuade me from taking a blood sample.
 
andy mac said:
its jizer industrial degreaser go to screwfix and check the data sheet. ha ha i no i said that the police station was as old as the hills i got inked fingers, palms and side of hands inked. well i think its going to come down to my word against theirs i need things that i report to be true so that it makes me look less of a lier when they say they never said anything to dissuade me from taking a blood sample.
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At the end of the day, you will be guided by what the solicitor advises you, but I still maintain that you need to focus on what your defence is.... You should have been offered the statutory option with NO interference either way in your choice of doing it, and the officer appears to have put you off. If proven then you are off the hook.
saying that they used a non standard degreaser is about as much help to your case as telling the magistrates that the coffee was awefull. Both could be true, but going on about either facts will just divert the magistrates from focussing on the real issue. It wil not add to your credibility.
as the Mod said earlier, you could make a complaint to the police about the degreaser, and the miniature whiskey bottle if you want to, but the matter will not be investigated until after your case has been dealt with in court.
 
Up for my intermediate diet on Friday. Can they thro my case out because my lawyer is still awaiting further information on the device the used they have contacted the court about this matter
 
Andy mac,
the court can dismiss a case through non disclosure of relevant information, but that would depend on several factors.
How long ago was the information requested, and has it been shown to be directly relevant to your defence?
They do not take kindly to the defence requesting evidence just for the sake of it, is is called a 'fishing expedition.' It is accepted that the devices used by police forces are type approved and therefore legal. If, however, the question is something about the specific machine, I.e. The siting of it or about it being used in a non standard way, then that is relevant information.
in England, the information has to be submitted to the other side not less than 7 days before the trial. I must admit I am not sure if this rule applies in Scotland, but your solicitor will advise you.
 
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The intermediate Diet is only to see if the case is ready to go to trial. The police will not be there, nor will you be asked questions.
It will be you, your solicitor and the Procurator Fiscal.
 
So why have the intermediate diet?
i have another court date on the 20th of next month will they decide the what happens or could it drag on?
i got arrested because i never attended my last intermediate diet my partner fell ill and was in hospital on the morning i was to attend court.
i had phoned to let my lawyer know and he told the court but they never removed the warrant i was in court christmas eve and set another date which is this friday.
 
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