andy mac
Member
Eh this makes me awfully nervous would I not just go up and plead not guilty
41mg breath test
- Thread starter andy mac
- Start date
bristol.red
No Longer a Member
Sorry but I disagree or this was not the case on my last trial. Advanced disclosure gets issued on the 1st hearing. I believe price1367 is getting confused with all the other evidence like custody records, unused material and all the other bit and pieces. The legal system is changing constantly but I am aware that what I have just said was the norm last year regarding criminal matters.
bristol.red
No Longer a Member
Yes, u will be in court less than 5 mins. If your solicitor is not present and they ask u the basis of ur not guilty plea, tell them to phone ur solicitor. end off, tell them fuk all else.
bristol.red
No Longer a Member
Often the mickey mouse magistrates court tells the cps to serve these documents a lot earlier than 7 days prior to trial. The CPS often ignore this as in my case, my trial was due on the Monday, the cps had not served the documents on the Thursday. My solicitor put an application in on the Friday to have my trial "Vacated". The cps served the papers on the Friday. No witnesses turned up on the Monday. I am not going to tell you guys decide what the outcome was. The crime was a criminal matter but not drink drive related.
price1367
TTC Group
This is the CPS guidance from their manual:
Primary disclosure
1.9 The prosecutor's statutory duty to disclose unused material to the defence is triggered by:
• a plea of not guilty in the magistrates' court
• (more wording about Crown Court cases)
When this occurs the CPS must provide the accused with primary disclosure. This obligation exists irrespective of any action by the defence.
1.10 Primary disclosure means providing the defence with any prosecution material which has not previously been disclosed to the accused, and which in the prosecutor's opinion might undermine the case for the prosecution against the accused. If there is no such material the prosecutor must inform the defence in writing. Disclosure to the defence must take place as soon as reasonably practicable after the duty arises.
So, as usual things are wooly. In my area, CPS take the view that it impractical for the prosecutor to leave court and copy all the documents, not to mention checking them for sensitive material that should not be disclosed and removing them, whilst keeping the court waiting for the next case to start. Remember each defendant may well have a solicitor, but there is only one prosecutor in court.
Maybe things are different in your area, Bristol.Red, but it may also be that there had been some correspondence between your solicitor and CPS prior to court, so they turned up ready to do the disclosure. It boils down to what is "As soon as reasonably practicable".....
Also:
Quote from Bristol.Red:
Often the mickey mouse magistrates court tells the cps to serve these documents a lot earlier than 7 days prior to trial. The CPS often ignore this as in my case, my trial was due on the Monday, the cps had not served the documents on the Thursday. My solicitor put an application in on the Friday to have my trial "Vacated". The cps served the papers on the Friday. No witnesses turned up on the Monday.
I am not going to tell you guys decide what the outcome was.
That re-enforces the theory of pleading not guilty until that last possible moment, because the ineptitude of the prosecution system known no boundaries. If you had gone guilty to get a discount, you would never have had the benefit of the cock up they made!
price1367
TTC Group
Yes, u will be in court less than 5 mins. If your solicitor is not present and they ask u the basis of ur not guilty plea, tell them to phone ur solicitor. end off, tell them fuk all else.
+1,
but maybe better to say "they have my instructions.", do not take the advice above literally.
andy mac
Member
Will they ask me to explain why I was dd?+1,
but maybe better to say "they have my instructions.", do not take the advice above literally.
price1367
TTC Group
No, they will not ask you anything about the case, or your defence at this stage. If your solicitor is there, he will speak for you, and follow your instructions by entering a not guilty plea. it will then be adjourned. If no solicitor is there for you, just tell the court that you have sought legal advice and you cannot go ahead without it.
The appearance, as bristol.red said, will only last 5 minutes tops...... but what time your case will be called is a different matter!
The appearance, as bristol.red said, will only last 5 minutes tops...... but what time your case will be called is a different matter!
bristol.red
No Longer a Member
Sensitive material that should not be disclosed, is another ball game altogether and if the defence can prove that it should be disclosed then the CPS have no option but to abandon the case, even on the most serious of trials.
I did not benefit from any cock up they made. This subject is now going way beyond a normal drink drive trial. One important thing I will add is that if a person is on legal aid, the legal aid solicitor is also a servant of the court. If you are cocky to a servant of the court and try to teach him his job. Plus he also knows you are guilty of the crime you are charged with or the CPS have offered a lessor charge that you were willing to plea guilty to on the 1st hearing but have now decided to plea not guilty to on either charge. Then this solicitor who is representing you on legal aid and is a servant of the court, may well not advise a defendant to plea not guilty to either charge and walk because no witnesses have turned up. He will not tell a defendant to plea guilty "but he may well not give them a get out of jail card free either".
The above situation happened to me and I ended up pleading guilty to the lessor charge and got a slap on the wrist from the magistrates. I later realised my mistake and regretted pleading guilty. However had the case been dismissed or I was found not guilty. I might well now be up on a conspiracy charge with 12 other people in a trial that is likely to last 10 weeks. So in a way I am grateful to my legal aid solicitor, who is also a servant of the court.
price1367
TTC Group
I agree that 'sensitive material' is often a case of "put up or Shut up." The prosecution do abandon cases rather than disclose details of informants etc.
The description of the duty solicitor as "a servant of the court" is correct, but that also applies to ALL solicitors attending court. In this context, a "servant" is someone who is there to assist the magistrates with coming to a proper conclusion in a case. All solicitors should assist in an open and fair way. The same should apply to police Officers.
Mind you, I am quoting what is expected of solicitors and police, not what actual practice is.
I recently had 2 people on a course who had both had the same solicitor. One paid £500 as a private client. The other turned up and asked for the duty solicitor and got his free 5 minutes worth. They were both happy with the advice they were given, but I always suggest that a solicitor is not going to explore anything other than "were you driving." "were you over the limit" and "how will the disqualification affect you" in that limited time. They are not going to pick up on the subtleties that can become a good defence in the non standard cases.
They will often only give advice only, rather than go into court to address the magistrates for you. This is because they receive a fee from the Legal Aid Board for being there for the day ( £150, last time I looked, probably gone up now) but they can only claim an extra fee for addressing the magistrates in cases where there is a substantial risk of custody, which does not apply to most drink driving offences. If they do go into court, it is out of 'the goodness of their heart'... and you being given a business card for any future offence where you need help.
The description of the duty solicitor as "a servant of the court" is correct, but that also applies to ALL solicitors attending court. In this context, a "servant" is someone who is there to assist the magistrates with coming to a proper conclusion in a case. All solicitors should assist in an open and fair way. The same should apply to police Officers.
Mind you, I am quoting what is expected of solicitors and police, not what actual practice is.
I recently had 2 people on a course who had both had the same solicitor. One paid £500 as a private client. The other turned up and asked for the duty solicitor and got his free 5 minutes worth. They were both happy with the advice they were given, but I always suggest that a solicitor is not going to explore anything other than "were you driving." "were you over the limit" and "how will the disqualification affect you" in that limited time. They are not going to pick up on the subtleties that can become a good defence in the non standard cases.
They will often only give advice only, rather than go into court to address the magistrates for you. This is because they receive a fee from the Legal Aid Board for being there for the day ( £150, last time I looked, probably gone up now) but they can only claim an extra fee for addressing the magistrates in cases where there is a substantial risk of custody, which does not apply to most drink driving offences. If they do go into court, it is out of 'the goodness of their heart'... and you being given a business card for any future offence where you need help.
andy mac
Member
In court today. next hearing will be 13th of december! their was a lawyer on behalf of my lawyer is this normal? was in the court for 10 minutes.
now whats happens?
thanks andy.
price1367
TTC Group
Andy mac,
this is common, imaging what it would cost (you) for a solicitor to travel some distance to court, knowing it was for an adjournment. They ask a local firm to do a holding exercise on their behalf.
was a plea of not guilty entered? I would imagine so, it seems a long time for an adjournment without a NG plea.
this is common, imaging what it would cost (you) for a solicitor to travel some distance to court, knowing it was for an adjournment. They ask a local firm to do a holding exercise on their behalf.
was a plea of not guilty entered? I would imagine so, it seems a long time for an adjournment without a NG plea.
andy mac
Member
i pleaded not guilty and i was then told by the court that my next hearing will be the 13th of december. is it normally that long?
when should i contact my lawyer or will they contact me?
price1367
TTC Group
I would advise you to contact your solicitor, after giving it a couple of days for the information to get back from the proxy solicitor. Was advance disclosure discussed? If not your solicitor will write to CPS to request it. They have to set said perhaps half a day of court time for the not guilty hearing, and that can be anything from 2 to 6 months ahead.
andy mac
Member
i was handed papers before i went in to court it contained what seemed to be police statements of what happened inc times and things i signed.was this the advanced disclosure?
bristol.red
No Longer a Member
Yes, well it's what I call advanced disclosure. Who gave you it? I would imagine it was handed to the solicitor who represented you today and he got a copy photocopied for you or the CPS bought a spare copy for you.
andy mac
Member
a police office out side the court handed it to me then the solicitor took it from me. i did have a good read thro it.
i explained that i was struck by a black cleo head on he turned on to oncoming traffic (me) the guy hit me around 40 i was traveling about 30 so my body is still feeling batterd anyway it went on to say that they discussed the incident with both parties then told us that we would be breathalized he passed i failed then was arrested then goes in to things the offerd to me and signed by me
bristol.red
No Longer a Member
Well all I can say is I am baffled on how the CPS can use a copper as a courier to hand you "Advanced disclosure papers". I can understand that your solicitor took it off you. If it had been me, I would of told the solicitor to go and ask the copper to go and get him his own copy or to ask the CPS to give him a copy. You should of said,"THIS COPY IS MINE, NOW IF YOU WANT A COPY YOU CAN GO AND USE THE COURTS PHOTOCOPIER AND PHOTOCOPY MINE, or GO AND ASK THE COPPER TO GO AND GET ANOTHER COPY PHOTOCOPIED FROM THE CPS SOLICITORS COPY".
I still think you are having a laugh, it is certainly making me laugh and some good is coming out of this thread too.
bristol.red
No Longer a Member
Make sure your doctor knows about the injury's you are still suffering, a Not Guilty verdict may open the door for a nice compensation claim
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