Son - advice needed please

[mulv2222]

Hi all.

My son was stopped in the early hrs of this morning and asked to do a breath test by the side of the road. It recorded a reading of 60 he thinks (no printout given) so he went to the police station where he has receipts for 3 further breath tests which read:

BrAC
Blank 1 000
Simulator check 1 033
blank 2 000
Breath specimen 1 ---

blank 1 000
simulator check 1 029
simulator check 1 incorrect

blank 1. 000
simulator check 1 034
blank 2. 000
breath specimen 1 ---

**Ambient Fail**

They then asked him to provide a blood sample, but he has a severe phobia of needles so refused. They didn't ask for a urine sample which he would have given. He has been told he has a court date of 5th Jan.

I don't understand any of the readings or procedures so any help would be greatly appreciated. He's 20 and at University where this happened.

Thank you

 

[BigTom]

It looks like the evidential breath test machine was playing up. Because they couldn't get a breath reading, they chose whether to request a blood or urine test for analysis, it is their choice and your Son would have no input into that choice. As he has refused the blood test, he has committed an offence and therefore probably has been charged with fail to provide.

If your Son has medical evidence that he has a phobia, i.e. it is recorded with the GP and he has no tattoos, never had an injection etc. then he may have a defence. Otherwise he is bang to rights.

If there is evidence of a genuine needle phobia recorded, then it will be best to get a solicitor involved who may be able to produce the evidence to the CPS who will then decide whether or not to proceed with the case through the courts.

Unfortunately, if he has no evidence, when it goes to court he will be dealt with more harshly than had he provided a sample, as failure to provide makes the court think that he was deliberately trying to hide the real level of alcohol in his system.

 

[mulv2222]

It looks like the evidential breath test machine was playing up. Because they couldn't get a breath reading, they chose whether to request a blood or urine test for analysis, it is their choice and your Son would have no input into that choice. As he has refused the blood test, he has committed an offence and therefore probably has been charged with fail to provide.

If your Son has medical evidence that he has a phobia, i.e. it is recorded with the GP and he has no tattoos, never had an injection etc. then he may have a defence. Otherwise he is bang to rights.

If there is evidence of a genuine needle phobia recorded, then it will be best to get a solicitor involved who may be able to produce the evidence to the CPS who will then decide whether or not to proceed with the case through the courts.

Unfortunately, if he has no evidence, when it goes to court he will be dealt with more harshly than had he provided a sample, as failure to provide makes the court think that he was deliberately trying to hide the real level of alcohol in his system.

Thank you for your reply.

It’s very frustrating that he is being charged with not supplying a blood sample when he was obviously complying as he took the breath tests willingly, just not the blood test. Do the readings they obtained not show that he was actually under the legal limit? Are they able to just keep trying to get a reading?

He’s never had a blood test ever. He can’t even have his blood pressure taken. I can presumably ask the gp to confirm that in a letter?

 

[BigTom]

Thank you for your reply.

It’s very frustrating that he is being charged with not supplying a blood sample when he was obviously complying as he took the breath tests willingly, just not the blood test. Do the readings they obtained not show that he was actually under the legal limit? Are they able to just keep trying to get a reading?

He’s never had a blood test ever. He can’t even have his blood pressure taken. I can presumably ask the gp to confirm that in a letter?

No they will not keep trying. The simulator checks should come back with 35 (or as near to as possible). As it was widely varying, there was obviously something wrong and the machine would therefore be out of action until it had been re calibrated.

Blood pressure doesn't require a blood sample so this has no bearing on the matter. However, if it is specifically recorded on the medical records that there is a needle phobia (not just that there is no record of a blood test ever being carried out) then whichever solicitor you instruct can get the information from the GP to present as evidence to the CPS prior to any court hearing.

 

[Milly22]

Hi all.

My son was stopped in the early hrs of this morning and asked to do a breath test by the side of the road. It recorded a reading of 60 he thinks (no printout given) so he went to the police station where he has receipts for 3 further breath tests which read:

BrAC
Blank 1 000
Simulator check 1 033
blank 2 000
Breath specimen 1 ---

blank 1 000
simulator check 1 029
simulator check 1 incorrect

blank 1. 000
simulator check 1 034
blank 2. 000
breath specimen 1 ---

**Ambient Fail**

They then asked him to provide a blood sample, but he has a severe phobia of needles so refused. They didn't ask for a urine sample which he would have given. He has been told he has a court date of 5th Jan.

I don't understand any of the readings or procedures so any help would be greatly appreciated. He's 20 and at University where this happened.

Thank you for your reply.

It’s very frustrating that he is being charged with not supplying a blood sample when he was obviously complying as he took the breath tests willingly, just not the blood test. Do the readings they obtained not show that he was actually under the legal limit? Are they able to just keep trying to get a reading?

He’s never had a blood test ever. He can’t even have his blood pressure taken. I can presumably ask the gp to confirm that in a letter?

Does he have any tattoos or piercings? Has he had any vaccinations?

This is what he's getting at - there needs to be some sort of solid recorded evidence he has a severe phobia meaning he couldn't provide a sample.

 

[mulv2222]

Does he have any tattoos or piercings? Has he had any vaccinations?

This is what he's getting at - there needs to be some sort of solid recorded evidence he has a severe phobia meaning he couldn't provide a sample.

No he doesn’t have any piercings or tattoos but has had some vaccinations. He recently was suggested a blood test at the hospital and completely freaked out and couldn’t do it. I think the nurse would remember. It’s a genuine fear or blood/needles, not him trying to avoid getting caught. He accepts and understands he should have never got into the car, is more the ftp that’s the issue as he was compliant with the breath test, it’s just the blood test he couldn’t do. I don’t know if there’s any point him getting a solicitor or just plead guilty and try and explain himself? This isn’t an area any of us know so any guidance would be appreciated.

 

[mulv2222]

No they will not keep trying. The simulator checks should come back with 35 (or as near to as possible). As it was widely varying, there was obviously something wrong and the machine would therefore be out of action until it had been re calibrated.

Blood pressure doesn't require a blood sample so this has no bearing on the matter. However, if it is specifically recorded on the medical records that there is a needle phobia (not just that there is no record of a blood test ever being carried out) then whichever solicitor you instruct can get the information from the GP to present as evidence to the CPS prior to any court hearing.

Do I need to obtain information prior to the 5th Jan or is that not a hearing date? He says he has a court date then but doesn’t know what it is. I know he’s 20 and an adult, but he’s clueless as am I. It’s just not something we know about.

 

[BigTom]

If his court date is 5th Jan, that is the opportunity to plead guilty or not guilty. If he pleads guilty, they will deal with the case there and then. He will be banned, fined and possible further punishment such as community order, probation etc. Should he plead not guilty, then a trial will be arranged at a further date.

To be honest, as he has had vaccinations before, and it appears it is a 'dislike' of needles as it isn't a GP diagnosed condition, he is unlikely to get through with not guilty. They will argue that as he has had needles before, he 'could' have provided a sample.

I would suggest speaking to a solicitor. Just don't look at the 'specialist' drink drive solicitors that you find on Google. They will go on a fishing expedition, trying to prove the Police didn't follow procedure. It will cost thousands, and 9 times out of 10, on the day of the trial they will say they haven't found anything and that he should go guiilty. This way your son will be up to £10K down, lost the 'discount' for early guilty plea and probably pissed the Magistrate off for wasting court resources. Look for a local solicitor who can either explore the needle fear, or at least put forward mitigation on a guilty plea. These should cost around £4 - 600 at most generally, depending where you are and the individual Solicitor firm.

 

[mulv2222]

If his court date is 5th Jan, that is the opportunity to plead guilty or not guilty. If he pleads guilty, they will deal with the case there and then. He will be banned, fined and possible further punishment such as community order, probation etc. Should he plead not guilty, then a trial will be arranged at a further date.

To be honest, as he has had vaccinations before, and it appears it is a 'dislike' of needles as it isn't a GP diagnosed condition, he is unlikely to get through with not guilty. They will argue that as he has had needles before, he 'could' have provided a sample.

I would suggest speaking to a solicitor. Just don't look at the 'specialist' drink drive solicitors that you find on Google. They will go on a fishing expedition, trying to prove the Police didn't follow procedure. It will cost thousands, and 9 times out of 10, on the day of the trial they will say they haven't found anything and that he should go guiilty. This way your son will be up to £10K down, lost the 'discount' for early guilty plea and probably pissed the Magistrate off for wasting court resources. Look for a local solicitor who can either explore the needle fear, or at least put forward mitigation on a guilty plea. These should cost around £4 - 600 at most generally, depending where you are and the individual Solicitor firm.

Thank you for replying. I’m waiting for him to get back from uni and show me what documents etc he has. A bit of an awkward time to get a solicitor but I’ll have look now for the Nottingham area. Should he contact his duty solicitor or get a different one? I know his car insurance has motor legal helpline, is there any point phoning that??

Thanks again for your help.

 

[BigTom]

Thank you for replying. I’m waiting for him to get back from uni and show me what documents etc he has. A bit of an awkward time to get a solicitor but I’ll have look now for the Nottingham area. Should he contact his duty solicitor or get a different one? I know his car insurance has motor legal helpline, is there any point phoning that??

Thanks again for your help.

I'm unsure about the motor legal helpline, I'm not sure if that is just for accidents, but as you are paying for it, it's probably worth looking at! It won't harm to call them to see.

You cannot pre-contact the duty solicitor. They are in court on the day but there is no guarantee they will see him if they have more pressing cases. They will only look at basic things, and could provide mitigation but will not be able to pursue any needle phobia defence.

 

[Norts]

I'm pretty sure that the cops can offer blood or urine samples if there's an issue with their brethalyser equipment, but I'm not sure they can dictate which one you choose to provide. If your Son was happy to provide a urine sample, I find it hard to understand how they could charge him with 'refusing or failing to provide a sample'.

 

[BigTom]

I'm pretty sure that the cops can offer blood or urine samples if there's an issue with their brethalyser equipment, but I'm not sure they can dictate which one you choose to provide. If your Son was happy to provide a urine sample, I find it hard to understand how they could charge him with 'refusing or failing to provide a sample'.

No, they do dictate. They decide and the accused has no option.

 

[nats]

Thank you for replying. I’m waiting for him to get back from uni and show me what documents etc he has. A bit of an awkward time to get a solicitor but I’ll have look now for the Nottingham area. Should he contact his duty solicitor or get a different one? I know his car insurance has motor legal helpline, is there any point phoning that??

Thanks again for your help.

Thank you for replying. I’m waiting for him to get back from uni and show me what documents etc he has. A bit of an awkward time to get a solicitor but I’ll have look now for the Nottingham area. Should he contact his duty solicitor or get a different one? I know his car insurance has motor legal helpline, is there any point phoning that??

Thanks again for your help.

You could read through your sons insurance policy as in a lot of cases the insurance becomes void for drink driving.

 

[anemone]

I know his car insurance has motor legal helpline, is there any point phoning that??

Absolutely phone the motor legal helpline. Our motor insurance covered my family member's defence against DD prosecution (your policy booklet should give you this information if defence against prosecution is covered). It didn't cost a dime. And we were able to choose our own solicitors as well. Not all solicitors take insurance, though, but some do. Our case was dropped for egregious breach of police procedures, so it was absolutely worth fighting. Please DM me if you have questions.

 

[mulv2222]

I'm pretty sure that the cops can offer blood or urine samples if there's an issue with their brethalyser equipment, but I'm not sure they can dictate which one you choose to provide. If your Son was happy to provide a urine sample, I find it hard to understand how they could charge him with 'refusing or failing to provide a sample'.

unfortunately they didn’t ask for a urine sample.