Licence Loss Due To Self-Declaration

[birt]

Well almost 2 months in I'm struggling to find anything to be positive about. I've still got no income and the money is running out. From making good money working a couple of long days a week - with the option to work more whenever. I'm resorting to applying for minimum wage factory jobs. Having been self-employed for 40 odd years I didn't realise just how shite the "job centre" experience is now. (After creating my first ever CV I applied for local non-driving jobs within a 20 mile radius, and ALL of the hundreds of jobs found required either a driving licence or were over the other side of the river so 30m+ away.) I'm finding myself extremely bitter at the way I've had my life totally ruined for no real road safety benefit

I still have a few questions about what will happen when my 6 months is up.

1. Do I have to contact the DVLA to apply to be unrevoked, or do they contact me?

2. What proof will I need of controlled drinking during the 6 months?

3. My doctor says he doesn't believe in controlled drinking, and I will have to go for total abstinence - which seems a bit OTT in my circumstances, and not what the DVLA is asking for. Will I need to change my GP early and establish a relationship early with my new doctor or will self-declaration be accepted as readily as it was when I was revoked. Will I have to have a DVLA medical with a blood CDT test.

4 Will I get my normal licence back, or will I get a temporary 12 month one. Will it cover all the nonHGV catagories I held before (motorcycle and trailer..) or will I have to apply for them seperately?

5.How difficult is it going to be to re-insure afterwards? My insurance agent hasn't got a clue as he has never heard of a similar case.
I own 2 sports cars and a large motorcycle so this might mean i can't afford to keep them.

 

[Hobgoblin]

Sorry, can't answer most of those questions, but would suggest declaring that you were teetotal during the revocation period, whether you were or not. Also, if you do get asked to take a CDT test, don't drink for a few weeks before.

I don't think insurance will be significantly more expensive. Some people have found their premium to be comparable (or only a little higher) even after a DD conviction.

I'm sure someone will answer soon who knows the answers.

 

[Bad_karma]

Well almost 2 months in I'm struggling to find anything to be positive about. I've still got no income and the money is running out. From making good money working a couple of long days a week - with the option to work more whenever. I'm resorting to applying for minimum wage factory jobs. Having been self-employed for 40 odd years I didn't realise just how shite the "job centre" experience is now. (After creating my first ever CV I applied for local non-driving jobs within a 20 mile radius, and ALL of the hundreds of jobs found required either a driving licence or were over the other side of the river so 30m+ away.) I'm finding myself extremely bitter at the way I've had my life totally ruined for no real road safety benefit

I still have a few questions about what will happen when my 6 months is up.

1. Do I have to contact the DVLA to apply to be unrevoked, or do they contact me?

2. What proof will I need of controlled drinking during the 6 months?

3. My doctor says he doesn't believe in controlled drinking, and I will have to go for total abstinence - which seems a bit OTT in my circumstances, and not what the DVLA is asking for. Will I need to change my GP early and establish a relationship early with my new doctor or will self-declaration be accepted as readily as it was when I was revoked. Will I have to have a DVLA medical with a blood CDT test.

4 Will I get my normal licence back, or will I get a temporary 12 month one. Will it cover all the nonHGV catagories I held before (motorcycle and trailer..) or will I have to apply for them seperately?

5.How difficult is it going to be to re-insure afterwards? My insurance agent hasn't got a clue as he has never heard of a similar case.
I own 2 sports cars and a large motorcycle so this might mean i can't afford to keep them.

Sorry to hear you are struggling! It can be incredibly hard to adapt and the lack of clarity about how you remedy the situation is perhaps the most frustrating part of it all.

1- You will need to take the reins on this as only you will know when you meet the requirements to re-apply. Whilst I appreciate you aren’t, you may be drinking a litre of vodka a day, the DVLA don’t know this. You go to them when you’re ready.

2- This is a very ambiguous topic and deliberately so. This whole process is incredibly case-by-case centric and there exists no right or wrong answer for anyone. By not giving you clear guidance they have a lot of manoeuvrability to reject your application if they take issue with something. There have been many suggestions over the years as to how controlled drinking can be demonstrated. I think the best option is to probably check in regularly with your GP. Providing they agree, regularly giving them with a list of what you drank and when perhaps as a regular email update alongside getting at least a couple of LFT tests might be a good idea. I will point out, however, there are recent examples on here of alcohol misusers who have been rejected despite not giving any indication they have exceeded government drinking guidelines, so what I have suggested may still get you rejected if they have concerns. Make of that what you will

3- The relationship with your GP will make a huge difference as to how easy or difficult the process is. Having your GP on side will really help, although isn’t by itself the silver bullet. You’ll need to have an honest conversation with them and come to a conclusion as to what’s the best course of action for you.

Your case will be reviewed by a doctor at DVLA once you reapply and they will determine if you need a CDT test, although I think I would work on the basis you are most likely going to have to have one.

4- The length of your licence will be determined by the DVLA, there’s no simple flowchart unfortunately.

Yes, when you get your licence back it will have your motorcycle and trailer entitlements.

5- I can’t see it making a massive difference. You don’t have any convictions to disclose - they are what cause the big increases. You will have to declare that you have a DVLA-disclosable medical condition and usually if they’ve issued you with a restricted licence. If I disclose a drinking condition on a comparison site now, for example, my cheapest premium goes up by £5. We are different people with different variables so I obviously can’t speak for your quotes but you aren’t going to become completely uninsurable over night. Why don’t you run a quote through and see what the results are?

 

[birt]

Sorry to hear you are struggling! It can be incredibly hard to adapt and the lack of clarity about how you remedy the situation is perhaps the most frustrating part of it all.

1- You will need to take the reins on this as only you will know when you meet the requirements to re-apply. Whilst I appreciate you aren’t, you may be drinking a litre of vodka a day, the DVLA don’t know this. You go to them when you’re ready.

2- This is a very ambiguous topic and deliberately so. This whole process is incredibly case-by-case centric and there exists no right or wrong answer for anyone. By not giving you clear guidance they have a lot of manoeuvrability to reject your application if they take issue with something. There have been many suggestions over the years as to how controlled drinking can be demonstrated. I think the best option is to probably check in regularly with your GP. Providing they agree, regularly giving them with a list of what you drank and when perhaps as a regular email update alongside getting at least a couple of LFT tests might be a good idea. I will point out, however, there are recent examples on here of alcohol misusers who have been rejected despite not giving any indication they have exceeded government drinking guidelines, so what I have suggested may still get you rejected if they have concerns. Make of that what you will

3- The relationship with your GP will make a huge difference as to how easy or difficult the process is. Having your GP on side will really help, although isn’t by itself the silver bullet. You’ll need to have an honest conversation with them and come to a conclusion as to what’s the best course of action for you.

Your case will be reviewed by a doctor at DVLA once you reapply and they will determine if you need a CDT test, although I think I would work on the basis you are most likely going to have to have one.

4- The length of your licence will be determined by the DVLA, there’s no simple flowchart unfortunately.

Yes, when you get your licence back it will have your motorcycle and trailer entitlements.

5- I can’t see it making a massive difference. You don’t have any convictions to disclose - they are what cause the big increases. You will have to declare that you have a DVLA-disclosable medical condition and usually if they’ve issued you with a restricted licence. If I disclose a drinking condition on a comparison site now, for example, my cheapest premium goes up by £5. We are different people with different variables so I obviously can’t speak for your quotes but you aren’t going to become completely uninsurable over night. Why don’t you run a quote through and see what the results are?

Thanks

 

[birt]

Well I've now got the FOI information from the DVLA and it seems that my GP has told the DVLA that I've admitted to drinking between 15 and 20 pints weekly on my last five yearly check ups, and have ignored advice to control my intake. The good news is that I'm healthy with full liver function etc.

 

[flaxzune]

It is very sad when you have to think like this, but the DVLA and may GPs are drawing a line in the sand and forcing good honest decent people to be deceitful and not seek help when they should.

 

[birt]

It is very sad when you have to think like this, but the DVLA and may GPs are drawing a line in the sand and forcing good honest decent people to be deceitful and not seek help when they should.

It all seems very silly, and counter productive. A GP should be acting in the interest of his patient, and clearly taking away the driving licence, and inevitably the job, of someone with a mild drinking problem isn't in their interest, or even likely to help their overall health situation.

As for the DVLA, they clearly can't take away the licences of everybody who drinks more than the recommended guidelines, because society couldn't cope with the consequences of 20-25% of the adult population becoming pedestrians. I doubt any other country has such badly thought out policy - undermining the trust between doctor and patient for zero road safety gain and no real overall health benefit.

As for me. I'm now starting a new boring night-shift job next week, after 3 months of searching, and might well have a second part-time job (interview tomorrow..) in an interesting caring role. I'm not going for total abstinence, just trying to adhere to the seven pint "controlled drinking" rule (with a bit of poetic licence..), and with the support of my new GP hope to get my licence back later this year. The last three months have very much been a mid-life crisis, which caught me completely by surprise, but I'm now back to normal - but far more cynical than I was before. I've found unemployment a really horrible experience, with strong feelings of deja vu going back to the last time I was jobless in the 70's, and at first I was in no mental state for job seeking (I'm certain I failed at least one interview due directly to my lack of self-esteem..). It's actually been my drinking friends that have rallied round, and given me a sense of perspective. As soon as I got my mojo back, stopped feeling like a public menace and minor criminal, and started taking a positive attitude, things started to improve. So in the long term no harm done. I've just got an entry to run in the Amsterdam Marathon (my first and probably last marathon at 65 - halves are more my thing..) in October so running the three miles back from work (the long way 10 miles once a week..) will be part of my training plan

 

[RSC]

It all seems very silly, and counter productive. A GP should be acting in the interest of his patient, and clearly taking away the driving licence, and inevitably the job, of someone with a mild drinking problem isn't in their interest, or even likely to help their overall health situation.

As for the DVLA, they clearly can't take away the licences of everybody who drinks more than the recommended guidelines, because society couldn't cope with the consequences of 20-25% of the adult population becoming pedestrians. I doubt any other country has such badly thought out policy - undermining the trust between doctor and patient for zero road safety gain and no real overall health benefit.

As for me. I'm now starting a new boring night-shift job next week, after 3 months of searching, and might well have a second part-time job (interview tomorrow..) in an interesting caring role. I'm not going for total abstinence, just trying to adhere to the seven pint "controlled drinking" rule (with a bit of poetic licence..), and with the support of my new GP hope to get my licence back later this year. The last three months have very much been a mid-life crisis, which caught me completely by surprise, but I'm now back to normal - but far more cynical than I was before. I've found unemployment a really horrible experience, with strong feelings of deja vu going back to the last time I was jobless in the 70's, and at first I was in no mental state for job seeking (I'm certain I failed at least one interview due directly to my lack of self-esteem..). It's actually been my drinking friends that have rallied round, and given me a sense of perspective. As soon as I got my mojo back, stopped feeling like a public menace and minor criminal, and started taking a positive attitude, things started to improve. So in the long term no harm done. I've just got an entry to run in the Amsterdam Marathon (my first and probably last marathon at 65 - halves are more my thing..) in October so running the three miles back from work (the long way 10 miles once a week..) will be part of my training plan

Hi Don't want to derail this topic but DO want to offer some moral support:

The DVLA do indeed seem to have become very draconian/Orwellian. Being a cynic I would say this is due to the chaos they caused during the pandemic ie extremely slow. I was awarded early return of my licence but due to their effing about for months, the ban ended up being exactly the original three years. Point of which is I lost all my NCB. You will not be in this situation.

Am a tad younger than you and also job seeking so great to hear that not all employers are ageist.

Love the training/commuting plan.

I had to see my (new to the practice) NHS dentist and was asked - among other questions - how much I drank. Tried not to look too much rabbit in headlights and said something like about recommended guidelines

 

[waitingforgp]

Hi, I got my licence back after being wrongly medically revoked several years ago. A vindictive gaffer made me declare I was an alcoholic as he said it would avoid a disciplinary for a daft one off drunken incident on a night out. It diddnt avoid a disciplinary and the declaration of this has messed my life up. My GP has been a nightmare since and i have no trust in them now. After a battle lasting several years i finally got my licence back at the end of 2023.

Declare yourself as complete abstinence, dont risk telling them you drink in moderation. I did this the first time I applied for my licence back and they changed my status from alcohol misuse to alcohol dependant. The DVLA are hellish to deal with.

Please also abstain completely for 4 weeks before your CDT. I did this and my result was less than 0.5%. I've only been granted a 1 year licence despite such a low reading .

Bitter doesn't come close to how I feel about my ex gaffer, GP and DVLA.

 

[birt]

Hi, I got my licence back after being wrongly medically revoked several years ago. A vindictive gaffer made me declare I was an alcoholic as he said it would avoid a disciplinary for a daft one off drunken incident on a night out. It diddnt avoid a disciplinary and the declaration of this has messed my life up. My GP has been a nightmare since and i have no trust in them now. After a battle lasting several years i finally got my licence back at the end of 2023.

Declare yourself as complete abstinence, dont risk telling them you drink in moderation. I did this the first time I applied for my licence back and they changed my status from alcohol misuse to alcohol dependant. The DVLA are hellish to deal with.

Please also abstain completely for 4 weeks before your CDT. I did this and my result was less than 0.5%. I've only been granted a 1 year licence despite such a low reading .

Bitter doesn't come close to how I feel about my ex gaffer, GP and DVLA.

The DVLA state, in the letter to me that "You are required to show controlled drinking at the recommended low risk limits for at least 6 months"
So is this all actually not true, and they can make the rules up as they go along? I really am not happy with the idea of total abstinence as, for a single man like me, it means no social life, whereas controlled drinking means I can, by alternating pints of tap water with beer, carry on enjoying my life much as before, with no risk to my health.

I must say that the support of my friends over the last 3 months has been crucial - I would be in a very bad place indeed, health wise, if I had no contact with them. Surely there must be a set procedure rather than letting the DVLA bully the public?

 

[waitingforgp]

The DVLA state, in the letter to me that "You are required to show controlled drinking at the recommended low risk limits for at least 6 months"
So is this all actually not true, and they can make the rules up as they go along? I really am not happy with the idea of total abstinence as, for a single man like me, it means no social life, whereas controlled drinking means I can, by alternating pints of tap water with beer, carry on enjoying my life much as before, with no risk to my health.

I must say that the support of my friends over the last 3 months has been crucial - I would be in a very bad place indeed, health wise, if I had no contact with them. Surely there must be a set procedure rather than letting the DVLA bully the public?

That's what they did to me. I was gobsmacked when the letter arrived saying alcohol dependant when I only declared 14 units per week. They basically require you to say you are abstinent as far as my experience went.

GP practice in my case were awful too... demanded nearly 3 times the usual fee for my medical reports to be sent to the DVLA to get my licence back so that held the whole process up by nearly 6 months while they argued it out. Only got resolved when I contacted my MP and then threatened to go to the media about it.... horrible experience from beginning to end. Very stressful and terrible for my mental health.

 

[birt]

That's what they did to me. I was gobsmacked when the letter arrived saying alcohol dependant when I only declared 14 units per week. They basically require you to say you are abstinent as far as my experience went.

GP practice in my case were awful too... demanded nearly 3 times the usual fee for my medical reports to be sent to the DVLA to get my licence back so that held the whole process up by nearly 6 months while they argued it out. Only got resolved when I contacted my MP and then threatened to go to the media about it.... horrible experience from beginning to end. Very stressful and terrible for my mental health.

I think I'll make an appointment with my new GP, discuss my situation with him, and try to suss out his/her attitude. I'm obviously planning to go for total abstinence (well zero alcohol Adnams GhostShip 0.5% beer alternated with tap water..) for the last month of my 6 month period, and up to any CDT test they ask me to take (plus a few weeks after* until the DVLA acknowledge the results...). I will be totally pissed off if the DVLA don't accept this and will probably sell the Lotus and Ducati and accept life as a pedestrian. I've never driven under the influence of alcohol. My drinking levels were considered OK a few years ago and don't appear to have had any effect on my health, even though I'd been drinking at the same levels for the last 45+ years. The only evidence that I drank at all was self-declaration, with no non-driving incidents etc.

If they're going to insist on total abstinence, they should state this upfront. Just as they should make it more obvious that they operate a blanket 14 unit policy rather than hiding behind "current BMA guidelines.
what do other, more intelligently governed countries do?

*local lad - who I have zero sympathy for because he was caught driving an HGV well over the limit - claims he took a DVLA CDT test after a three year ban on the Friday after not drinking at all for a month. He was then called in again on the Monday because of the results "being lost" and failed - after a celebratory weekend on the lash. No idea if this is actually true, but I'll stick to very controlled drinking until my test is acknowledged.

 

[Hobgoblin]

Would still recommend saying to the doctor or DVLA you are completely abstinent, while your licence is currently suspended, whether you drink or not in reality.

 

[waitingforgp]

Would still recommend saying to the doctor or DVLA you are completely abstinent, while your licence is currently suspended, whether you drink or not in reality.

100% agree after my horrible experience. I've never even had as much as a parking ticket and they completely shafted me. CDT really requires a proper 4 week abstinence to be sure of passing it.

 

[birt]

Would still recommend saying to the doctor or DVLA you are completely abstinent, while your licence is currently suspended, whether you drink or not in reality.

But surely, if he springs a Liver Function Test on me, he will know if I'm drinking at all and will know it's an outright lie? I want the doctor to trust me, because I'm not a good liar. Perhaps I should state that I'm alternating 0.5% beer and tap water?

 

[Xeronema]

Perhaps I should state that I'm alternating 0.5% beer and tap water?

Hey birt.

Please be careful with doing this. A friend of mine (he's actually my closest friend, after my partner or course) has struggled with alcohol for quite some time and, for reasons I won't go into, he said something similar to his doctor (I don't know word for word exactly what was said, I wasn't at the appointment). Without going into too much detail, I can tell you that the appointment didn't have anything to do with driving, it was about anxiety/mental health. He'd gone in for a checkup, with the intention of getting medication prescribed to help with anxiety.

His doctor asked him about his drinking habits and he said that he enjoyed having a few pints at the pub, however recently he would have a pint and then when it came to the next round he'd have a soft drink. The doctor asked him why he'd have a soft drink every other drink. It's my opinion that the doctor was trying to work out if my friend had a negative relationship with alcohol or not - on his patient record it states that the doctor is concerned that alcohol maybe an issue for my friend and that it needs to be monitored. As it happens, alcohol is a problem for my friend.

I think the doctor found it odd as to why my friend would go out for a few pints with friends and feel the need to alternate between alcohol and soft drinks, rather than just drinking at a slower pace. Some alcoholics (I should know, I'm a recovering one) will drink soft drinks (or water) from a pint glass, just because they need to be drinking something. I'm not for one minute suggesting that you have a problem with alcohol, I'm just saying that your doctor may question why you're choosing to do that.

If you are going to be drinking 0.5% ABV beer, and you're not going to be exceeding the Government guidelines for alcohol consumption, your LFT's aren't going to be raised/abnormal, therefore you'd have nothing to worry about if they were to spring a blood test on you. You could say you are completely abstinent and they wouldn't know.

It really sucks that people have to lie in order to ensure they can get/keep their driving licence. I'm so happy that I don't drink anymore - I know I'd feel as trapped/frustrated as you, and many others, are right now. The doctors, as well as the DVLA, have so much power to cause so much damage/destruction, I don't feel as if they should have as much power. I believe in keeping people safe, I just think that every person should be deal with individually, it shouldn't be so black and white.

Whatever you choose to do, I wish you the best of luck, and I hope that you have a much better relationship with your new doctor. It took me 7 years to find a GP that I trust.

 

[birt]

Alternating beer with tapwater works for me (or at least I thought it did..) because I'm usually drinking with friends and it means I can keep pace with the rounds and still exercise controlled drinking. My previous consumption, which didn't actually seem to effect my health too badly, was 12-20 pints weekly, so halving that means I'm not far off BMA guidelines and the tap water will help protect my liver (not that the DVLA give a shite about my health or even road safety..). But thanks for pointing that out - I'll make sure the doctor understands my reasoning. FWIW I gave up drinking altogether during lockdown, and had no problems because I didn't think I was missing out on my social life. I've got 12 bottles of London Pride still in the house, left over from a music festival last year, which will remain untouched because I never drink at home - it's purely a social thing for me.

My plan is to interact with my new GP, ask for his advice and work from there, making it clear that my social life is very important to my overall health, and actually more important to me than, my driving licence. He's been very helpful to my friend - who has a much worse drinking problem than mine.
I'm also aware that I live in a small village, and claiming total abstinence could backfire spectacularly if my new doctor spots me, or hears of me, in my local nursing a 0.5% Ghost Ship or whatever. I'll work on the basis that GPs are control freaks, and let him think he's in charge.

 

[jamesbrown1]

Alternating beer with tapwater works for me (or at least I thought it did..) because I'm usually drinking with friends and it means I can keep pace with the rounds and still exercise controlled drinking. My previous consumption, which didn't actually seem to effect my health too badly, was 12-20 pints weekly, so halving that means I'm not far off BMA guidelines and the tap water will help protect my liver (not that the DVLA give a shite about my health or even road safety..). But thanks for pointing that out - I'll make sure the doctor understands my reasoning. FWIW I gave up drinking altogether during lockdown, and had no problems because I didn't think I was missing out on my social life. I've got 12 bottles of London Pride still in the house, left over from a music festival last year, which will remain untouched because I never drink at home - it's purely a social thing for me.

My plan is to interact with my new GP, ask for his advice and work from there, making it clear that my social life is very important to my overall health, and actually more important to me than, my driving licence. He's been very helpful to my friend - who has a much worse drinking problem than mine.
I'm also aware that I live in a small village, and claiming total abstinence could backfire spectacularly if my new doctor spots me, or hears of me, in my local nursing a 0.5% Ghost Ship or whatever. I'll work on the basis that GPs are control freaks, and let him think he's in charge.

sounds like changing GP was a seriously good idea, he does sound more than a tad 'special' even the person taking our dd course couldn't suppress a wry smile when she told us the new government guidelines for safe alcohol consumption. (kinda 3 teaspoons of wine every 4 days)

 

[Hobgoblin]

But surely, if he springs a Liver Function Test on me, he will know if I'm drinking at all and will know it's an outright lie? I want the doctor to trust me, because I'm not a good liar. Perhaps I should state that I'm alternating 0.5% beer and tap water?

A LFT wouldn't necessarily show up an elevated GGT, but it might. I drink regularly, and my reading was high one year and normal the next year. IIRC, Adrian Chile's LFT was normal after drinking 100 units a week.