Insurer trying to recover costs after drink-drive collision

[Joey2021]

I understand that Admiral are most commonly mentioned as trying to recover claims they have paid out to third parties, but I am now being pursued by RSA after my collision in March 2017. They have instructed a law firm to ask me for payment proposals for the full amount of costs paid out, which is in the region of £58,000. I just don't know what to do. We are devastated.
This is not an excuse for my stupidity, but it is a reason. I was going through an acrimonious divorce at the time of the crash and had been to deliver papers to the family court on the day in question. I then had some drinks with my partner and drove my car. I collided at low speed with another vehicle in which there were 2 passengers. Neither declared any injuries. My passenger sustained a fractured sternum due to the airbags activating and she went to hospital.
Needless to say, I went through the arrest process and was subsequently banned from driving for 28 months, which was reduced as I was offered the course. I also lost my job.
Since then, I have got my licence back and am working again. RSA wrote to me in January 2020 saying that they were recouping the costs paid out from me personally and stipulated the amount. Since the incident, somebody at RSA told me that the costs for hiring a car were in excess of £20,000 and were ongoing as the driver of the other vehicle was still hiring a car. The car he was driving at the time was valued at £650, so I was obviously aggrieved that this was being allowed. Someone else at RSA told me that the parties in the other vehicle were claiming an extortionate amount of money and that RSA would be formally challenging this and that I did not need to do anything.
RSA then instructed a firm of solicitors and the last correspondence I received from them was in February 2020. Then at the end of October 2021, another legal firm wrote to me asking for my repayment proposals by 4pm on 15th November 2021, otherwise they would institute proceedings via the Courts. So, after a 20 month delay, I have been contacted again after having no communication with anyone in that time. RSA didn't even inform me that they were instructing a different firm.
It's almost 5 years since the crash and I feel as though I'm not able to move on after the nightmare.

 

[Polly3]

I understand that Admiral are most commonly mentioned as trying to recover claims they have paid out to third parties, but I am now being pursued by RSA after my collision in March 2017. They have instructed a law firm to ask me for payment proposals for the full amount of costs paid out, which is in the region of £58,000. I just don't know what to do. We are devastated.
This is not an excuse for my stupidity, but it is a reason. I was going through an acrimonious divorce at the time of the crash and had been to deliver papers to the family court on the day in question. I then had some drinks with my partner and drove my car. I collided at low speed with another vehicle in which there were 2 passengers. Neither declared any injuries. My passenger sustained a fractured sternum due to the airbags activating and she went to hospital.
Needless to say, I went through the arrest process and was subsequently banned from driving for 28 months, which was reduced as I was offered the course. I also lost my job.
Since then, I have got my licence back and am working again. RSA wrote to me in January 2020 saying that they were recouping the costs paid out from me personally and stipulated the amount. Since the incident, somebody at RSA told me that the costs for hiring a car were in excess of £20,000 and were ongoing as the driver of the other vehicle was still hiring a car. The car he was driving at the time was valued at £650, so I was obviously aggrieved that this was being allowed. Someone else at RSA told me that the parties in the other vehicle were claiming an extortionate amount of money and that RSA would be formally challenging this and that I did not need to do anything.
RSA then instructed a firm of solicitors and the last correspondence I received from them was in February 2020. Then at the end of October 2021, another legal firm wrote to me asking for my repayment proposals by 4pm on 15th November 2021, otherwise they would institute proceedings via the Courts. So, after a 20 month delay, I have been contacted again after having no communication with anyone in that time. RSA didn't even inform me that they were instructing a different firm.
It's almost 5 years since the crash and I feel as though I'm not able to move on after the nightmare.

I have nothing to offer you other than my absolute sympathy. There are many well informed contributors to this forum, so hopefully some constructive advice will be forthcoming. What you describe is utterly corrupt. I am so sorry. I do feel however that there will be a solution .

 

[price1367]

Hi Joey2021
You are right that Admiral are the firm most mentioned on here as wanting to recoup third party costs, but there are quite a few companies who do the same. Check the policy to see what it says about drink drive cases and recouping costs.
Have a read of the Admiral Insurance thread and type Admiral in to the search box on the top right of the screen to see other comments about them. All those comments are valid against your query about RSA,

Did you sign the indemnity form they will have sent you, asking them to act on your behalf?

They have 6 years from the accident to commence legal proceedings in the County Court.
Insurance companies quite often leave pursuing a claim for 3-4 years because they know the driver could week be in a bad position after losing their own car and a job.
What a while and, hey presto, your circumstances have improved so they come after you,

They may well threaten court action to try to get you to negotiate a settlement but what you have to watch out for is a ‘Letter of Claim’ or ‘Letter before claim’. This needs responding to because it means that commencing court action is imminent. In that letter they should set out the timeframe and exactly what they say you are liable for.

Whilst it is safe to ignore any correspondence before the letter of claim, given that the amount they want is so large it is unlikely to go away. I suggest you write to them (NOT phone calls as they can be misinterpreted) asking them for a FULL breakdown of the claim in writing.
When they reply, query the car hire…… why that in particular is so large.
When they reply to that, Ask for confirmation for the settlement value of the car.
When they reply, ask for details of the injuries allegedly sustained.
When they reply, ask what enquiries or medical reports they relied on to ascertain what the alleged injuries were.
When they reply, unless the previous reply is clear, ask Was it the ‘victims’ own evidence of was it backed up with hospital reports.
When they reply to that, ask what independent reports they requested to verify the injuries.
When they reply to that, ask what steps they took to mitigate their losses not reduce what they are now claiming from you.

That isn’t an exhaustive list, but the important thing is to only ask one question at a time, and take the maximum time they allow to answer their replies.

The questions are all valid, but the reason for asking them one at a time is to try to talk them ‘out of time’ for the 6 year time they have.

At the same time, you should write now to the Data protection officer at the company, saying you are making a ‘Freedom of Information” request for all information that the company hold on you and your vehicle, to include letters, reports, photographs, telephone recordings and emails. You include your personal details and a photo of your driving licence to prove your identity. That may turn up matters that they do not disclose to you in response to your questions.

 

[Joey2021]

I have nothing to offer you other than my absolute sympathy. There are many well informed contributors to this forum, so hopefully some constructive advice will be forthcoming. What you describe is utterly corrupt. I am so sorry. I do feel however that there will be a solution .

Thank you for taking the time to acknowledge my post and thank you for your comforting words.

 

[Joey2021]

Hi Joey2021
You are right that Admiral are the firm most mentioned on here as wanting to recoup third party costs, but there are quite a few companies who do the same. Check the policy to see what it says about drink drive cases and recouping costs.
Have a read of the Admiral Insurance thread and type Admiral in to the search box on the top right of the screen to see other comments about them. All those comments are valid against your query about RSA,

Did you sign the indemnity form they will have sent you, asking them to act on your behalf?

They have 6 years from the accident to commence legal proceedings in the County Court.
Insurance companies quite often leave pursuing a claim for 3-4 years because they know the driver could week be in a bad position after losing their own car and a job.
What a while and, hey presto, your circumstances have improved so they come after you,

They may well threaten court action to try to get you to negotiate a settlement but what you have to watch out for is a ‘Letter of Claim’ or ‘Letter before claim’. This needs responding to because it means that commencing court action is imminent. In that letter they should set out the timeframe and exactly what they say you are liable for.

Whilst it is safe to ignore any correspondence before the letter of claim, given that the amount they want is so large it is unlikely to go away. I suggest you write to them (NOT phone calls as they can be misinterpreted) asking them for a FULL breakdown of the claim in writing.
When they reply, query the car hire…… why that in particular is so large.
When they reply to that, Ask for confirmation for the settlement value of the car.
When they reply, ask for details of the injuries allegedly sustained.
When they reply, ask what enquiries or medical reports they relied on to ascertain what the alleged injuries were.
When they reply, unless the previous reply is clear, ask Was it the ‘victims’ own evidence of was it backed up with hospital reports.
When they reply to that, ask what independent reports they requested to verify the injuries.
When they reply to that, ask what steps they took to mitigate their losses not reduce what they are now claiming from you.

That isn’t an exhaustive list, but the important thing is to only ask one question at a time, and take the maximum time they allow to answer their replies.

The questions are all valid, but the reason for asking them one at a time is to try to talk them ‘out of time’ for the 6 year time they have.

At the same time, you should write now to the Data protection officer at the company, saying you are making a ‘Freedom of Information” request for all information that the company hold on you and your vehicle, to include letters, reports, photographs, telephone recordings and emails. You include your personal details and a photo of your driving licence to prove your identity. That may turn up matters that they do not disclose to you in response to your questions.

Thank you for taking the time to give advice as to how I should proceed. The letter I received dated 16 Oct 2021 is titled "Letter of Claim." I also received a "Letter of Claim" from another law firm dated 04 Feb 2020. I have replied to both of these disputing the supposed debt, which has never been broken down sufficiently. I would question that RSA should have 2 bites of the cherry when the first company they instructed failed to comply with the 30 day rule and did not make any further contact with me.
I have also attached a copy of RSA's T&C's, which clearly states they reserve the right to recoup monies paid prior to conviction. No monies were paid out before my conviction on 3 May 2017.
I didn't sign any indemnity, although one was sent.
Thank you once again for your advice.

 

[price1367]

I have looked at the link you sent me: I think this is what you are referring to:
“ Drink/Drugs Clause:
- if as a result of any incident giving rise a claim the person driving is convicted of or has a fixed penalty imposed for any offence involving driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs. Where any payment has been made prior to the conviction or imposition of a penalty by a court for such offence, we reserve our right to recover any payment from you”

I read that as saying that if they have paid YOU out for YOUR car, and then they find that you have been convicted of drink driving, they will see to recover that money from you.

That is not a clause about third party costs being recovered after drink driving….. Is there another one in the policy?

The Letter of claim bit is irrelevant. There is no “rule” that they must take action within 30 days and there is nothing to stop them instructing other solicitors after using a different one to begin with,

What paperwork did they send you with the ‘letter of claim?” It is supposed to set out the full circumstances giving rise to the claim….. did they do that?

 

[price1367]

The other thing that comes to mind about the hire Car is that I believe that generally one is only supplied for 7/14 days after a car has been declared a write off. If the vehicle was only worth £650 it would have been abundantly clear from the outset that the car would be written off, so the car hire should have only continued up to that timetable. It should also only be for a comparable vehicle to the one damaged.

 

[fml2020]

Hey, so I have come across this thread and saw that admiral usually waits 3-4 years before asking for the money I owe them. Anyway, I haven’t heard from admiral since asking for certain evidence and that was last June 2021. However, I did get an email saying in August saying that they’re still trying to ‘gather the evidence I’ve asked for’ which I think they just don’t have it and I haven’t heard anything since. Shall I chase them by email or not? Because the last thing I want is them to take me to court

 

[Joey2021]

I wouldn't chase them by email. I think taking your time is the best tactic here. Price1367 has given some valuable advice, which I have begun to take myself. My horrendous experience was 5 years ago next month and I have now referred the case to the Financial Ombudsman Service. They have informed me that due to a backlog in their cases, it could be 4 to 6 months before they will be in contact with me. I have also received all the documentation, phone call recordings and emails from RSA which I need time to go through thoroughly. That was after submitting a "Freedom of Information" request from the DP Officer. I forwarded the email I received from the Financial Ombudsman Service to RSA explaining that it may be some time before they get round to dealing with my case and I've heard nothing since then. I wish you well and hope that time passes quickly for you.

 

[Joey2021]

So here is my update.....apologies for the delay in case anyone was wondering what had happened to me. I referred my case to the Financial Ombudsman Service. They upheld the decision that I still needed to repay the sum of around £58,000. I appealed the decision and it was agreed that the third party claiming for loss of a car worth £650, had been allowed to spend around £15,000 more than they should have on car hire costs, so reduced the amount I supposedly owe to around £43,000. They gave no explanation of the injuries they had paid out for, despite my providing Facebook posts showing the injured party out on the town, the day after the collision professing he had walked away unscathed. They failed to show impecuniosity on his behalf, despite the fact he lived with parents at home and worked as a senior teacher. He had claimed impecuniosity earlier in the matter.
It is now exactly 28 days until the 6th anniversary of the incident, and I have still not been served with court papers. However, this has been threatened. They are giving me a further 3 weeks to provide an income and expenditure report to show affordability for this debt. I simply can't afford anything extra in this current climate of rising costs, fuel, interest rates etc etc. Does anyone have any advice/comments to make on my situation? This is causing my partner and I great distress.

 

[Joey2021]

By the way, I received a Letter of Claim in the post on 24 February 2023. There is no detail of the reasons monies were paid out by the insurance company.

 

[Tryingtofixthings]

Was this 6 years ago? Can I ask did admiral ask you to sign a consent and indemnity agreement ?
I have received in but I do not know what it is for (following a DR10 conviction and subsequent admiral cancelled the insurance however the other driver is claiming )

 

[Joey2021]

Just under 6 years ago. They sent an indemnity form for me to sign, but I didn’t sign it. Basically that gives them the right to demand any amount from you. So it gives them carte blanche to take the easiest route of no resistance without having to show what measures they have taken to minimise any claim against your policy. Good luck

 

[Tryingtofixthings]

Thank you

 

[Joey2021]

My Nemesis isn’t Admiral. It’s RSA. Please don’t play ball with them, unless they’re being fair with you. I hope you’re okay

 

[Sundog]

Have you asked for a full and itemised breakdown of costs?

 

[Luna2000]

So here is my update.....apologies for the delay in case anyone was wondering what had happened to me. I referred my case to the Financial Ombudsman Service. They upheld the decision that I still needed to repay the sum of around £58,000. I appealed the decision and it was agreed that the third party claiming for loss of a car worth £650, had been allowed to spend around £15,000 more than they should have on car hire costs, so reduced the amount I supposedly owe to around £43,000. They gave no explanation of the injuries they had paid out for, despite my providing Facebook posts showing the injured party out on the town, the day after the collision professing he had walked away unscathed. They failed to show impecuniosity on his behalf, despite the fact he lived with parents at home and worked as a senior teacher. He had claimed impecuniosity earlier in the matter.
It is now exactly 28 days until the 6th anniversary of the incident, and I have still not been served with court papers. However, this has been threatened. They are giving me a further 3 weeks to provide an income and expenditure report to show affordability for this debt. I simply can't afford anything extra in this current climate of rising costs, fuel, interest rates etc etc. Does anyone have any advice/comments to make on my situation? This is causing my partner and I great distress.

Have they told you what the £43k they are still claiming is made up of?

If the guy was /is still a Senior Teacher, was he signed off from work for any long period of time after the accident? Normally teacher's salaries are paid in full for 6 months and then half salary for the next 6 months. This is on the presumption that the person will be able to return to work. Did they tell you if this was the case?

There will be some compensation for pain and injury due to the injured party but that very much depends on how badly injured they were, and this would need to be backed up with medical evidence.

For writing off a car valued at £650 and then asking you to pay £43 excluding the cost of a hired car, you must have hit something else of high value (although from your post you say it was a low speed accident, but it was fast enough to set the airbags off.) Did you or the other car damage anything else?

Despite what Price said above, I think the 'any payment' statement made by RSA relates to all costs, yours and 3rd parties.

However, I still think that unless RSA can provide you with a fully detailed breakdown of exactly what costs they are reclaiming are, then continue fighting. Keep asking for the information and what does his impecuniosity have to do with you? Was he working before the accident? Did he work after the accident? He needs to prove this, not simply state it.

Reading between the lines, he simply sees this as a cash cow. If you are on the hook for £43k, then you are entitled to see ALL information in relation to the claim.

Write to them along these line. Be firm but polite. Tell them if you are forced to pay this money you will go Bankrupt or into a Voluntary Creditors Arrangement. You accept you are liable for reasonable costs, but these need to be fully demonstrated.

You could also, if you have the cash, try and engaed a lawyer to act for you.

Hope this is of some help.

 

[Joey2021]

Thank you Luna2000. What you have said makes great sense. I can assure you, there was no damage to any other property other than my car and the third party’s….total value of both vehicles was £1800.
I will continue to fight the case, and use some of your suggestions around impecuniosity etc.
Thanks again

 

[Sundog]

Can you not get them to waive the PI? In spite of the 6-year statute of limitations on DUI clauses, I thought anything relating to PI was subject to a 3-year limitation clause in itself.

The other important thing to add is that you have to piecemeal your replies. Don’t blurt them all into one correspondence. Helps run the clock down.

 

[TCB1989]

The personal injury needs to be submitted and processed within 3 years of the incident happening. After 3 years it lapses if the PI is not taken to court or any further correspondence. It all depends if the PI was submitted, taken to court, the insurance company paying out and it is done and dusted. Get the full breakdown from them.