Failing to supply a blood specimen

Convicted Driver Insurance

flukey365

Member
Hello all,

I posted previously but I feel that I might have posted in the incorrect section.

To re-cap. - I have been solely charged with failing to provide a blood specimen at a Hospital without good reason. I was injured in a RTA and due to pre-existing medical issues I was unable to blow sufficiently hard enough into the roadside Breathalyzer although I did try. I was arrested and transferred to hospital by ambulance accompanied by the police. I had been unconscious and I was very confused, my head and heart were of major concern. I have a serious heart condition and I informed the police of this. At hospital I was placed on a heart monitor and I was given two Cannulars in my arm plus a drip. The heart monitor was sounding a loud alarm and my heart rate was flashing red, it peaked at 135 which was a major concern. I was given a toxic drug called Digoxin which can cause all types of side effects including hallucinations, mood swings, dizziness and anxiety, I had them all. I really thought that I was dying or having a stroke! I was also given two scans and I could not even remember my DOB. The police wanted a blood specimen, I apparently refused and offered a urine sample. I remember little of all this but I was terrified of one of the officers, I actually, irrationally, thought that he wished to physically harm me or worse.

I have been charged and I am set for a hearing in two weeks time. I am representing myself due to financial restrictions, I have little money or income however my wife is earning over the threshold. I have substantiating medical evidence of my condition plus the hospital discharge letter regarding the Digoxin.

My questions relate to the hearing. -- I intend to plead Not Guilty and to request full disclosure of all the evidence against me, including lapel camera footage. What is likely to happen at the hearing? IE: Would it be adjourned and a trial date set? Would I be allowed to submit my recollections of the events of the Magistrates? If the evidence, when it arrives, shows me in a bad light can I then plead guilty at or even before the trial? There are several other points that may or not be relevant if anyone would wish to know.

I would be extremely grateful for any help whatsoever, I am becoming really anxious now.

Regards and best wishes. flukey
 
Hi,

Ideally you need to get your health records ASAP. These can be obtained from the hospital Trust under GDPR. This can take up to 30 days. Hopefully they may expedite them if you have a court case but equally they may decide to run them past the legal department if you mention a court case. If you plead not guilty now you can change your please prior to trial, although the discount on the fine for an early guilty plea reduced from 33% to 25%.

Essentially, it is up to the constable what sample they require, so offering a urine sample isn't a defence in itself.

There is a defence if a medical practitioner (usually a doctor) says there is a medical reason why it cannot or should not be taken, or a healthcare professional says it cannot or should not be taken, and there is no contrary opinion from a medical practitioner.

Hopefully if you obtain your medical records it will contain a note to that effect. Unfortunately your opinion as to whether it could or should of been taken isn't a defence.

If it doesn't say that in the notes then your plan B would be to instruct your own expert witness - a doctor who reviews your notes and can tell the court you could or should not have given a sample for medical reasons. However, this has three pitfalls: -

Firstly, expert witnesses just to review your notes and write a witness statement don't come cheap and you are unlikely to recover the cost even if you are found not guilty.

Secondly, the CPS will almost certainly object to the statement and require the doctor to appear in court and be cross examined, which again is more expense.

Thirdly, the CPS are likely to instruct their own expert witness, which you will have to pay for if you are found guilty.

Best case scenario of course is that your expert produces such a compelling report the CPS drops it but that is rare because the CPS are not clinicians and tend to let it play out in court. Of course even if the CPS drops it you will still need to pay the doctor.

On your side is that you only need to cast reasonable doubt on whether there were medical reasons why you could not give a sample. You do not need to prove even that is was probable there were reasons. On the other side magistrates courts tend to have difficulty understanding that concept and often those with technical defences have to appeal to Crown court to get a fair hearing - again more £££.

tl;dr You need to get your medical records ASAP because unless you get very lucky and the police officer recorded that a doctor or nurse told them there was a medical reason why you could not give bloods - and that is pigs with wings territory - the prosecution evidence will not help you.

You need to focus entirely on that defence because although the court will undoubtedly be sympathetic to your medical problems they will still find you guilty and charge you £620 costs for a contested trial unless you have a statutory defence to the charge.
 
Many thanks Tipsy Nurse, I very much appreciate it.

My defence is mainly that I was not aware of what was going on at the Hospital. I was in and out of consciousness and had suffered Trauma to my head, chest, and hip. I was admitted as an emergency and was placed on a heart monitor which was flashing red lights and a loud alarm was sounding. I was given the toxic drug Digoxin and that really sent me into delirium. I have vague and confusing memory of what happened but I am assuming that a blood sample was requested by the police and the charge is solely that I refused to give it. I was truly terrified of one of the PCs and I thought, irrationally, that he wished to harm me. The entire night was an absolute nightmare and I genuinely thought that I was dying. I even thought that I was entering hell, I saw gates with fire and demons.

I have detailed medical reports from last spring when I was admitted to hospital as an emergency due to my heart problems. I also have the discharge letter from the hospital relating to the RTA which clearly states that it was an emergency admission, that my bloods were normal also that I was given Digoxin, it further states that I was in Trauma, including of the head. I was certainly not functioning to an adequate mental capacity, it would have been impossible for my mind to be clear due to the circumstances. I was kept in hospital for two days.

My concern is whether or not I will be given ample opportunity to plead this to the Magistrates or, because the police will probably have evidence to support their claim that I did refuse then it is game over. It seems grossly unfair as the bloods the hospital took at admission were good, I had not been drinking! This fact is also on the discharge letter. It beggars the question why would I refuse a specimen, which would exonerate me, if I was fully aware of what was going on?

Just another point, if I may. I have limited funds and consequently I could only pay a fine by very small instalments. I am physically very frail, I have no intention of driving again in fact I will probably be made to undergo all the relevant medical and tests which I would not pass. I have no police record of any offences whatsoever. I can not think of any community service I would be capable of undertaking, so it is the fine I am most concerned about. I have no assets but my Wife does, she owns the house and has a moderate amount of savings plus she earns a reasonable salary. She has no financial connection to myself whatsoever apart from the fact that we are married. If the court issues a hefty fine could they go after my Wife for some of the payment?

Thanks again and best wishes. -- flukey365
 
Hi, if you have limited funds how are you going to pay the court costs?
we have the best justice system in the world apparently but only if you are rich
love the fact that if you lose the case you will have to pay their fees but if you win they dont pay yours - thats british justice in a nutshell
 
“It seems grossly unfair as the bloods the hospital took at admission were good, I had not been drinking! This fact is also on the discharge letter. It beggars the question why would I refuse a specimen, which would exonerate me”

The bloods taken on admission would not have been tested for alcohol.
Any fine would be on the basis of your means and your ability to pay the fine.
Does your medical state mean that you could not work in a charity shop for community service?
To go back to your original questions, you can plead not guilty at court and the case will be adjourned for a trial date. The only thing you would be asked is how you plead, (not guilty) and what is generally the basis of your plea (which would be your medical state giving you reasonable cause to fail to supply)
When you have reviewed the evidence, you could decide that you intend to plead guilty and change your plea if there is evidence of intoxication supplied by the medical staff and / or the police officer. You get a discount for an early guilty plea, but as this is drink driving, the discount does not apply to the length of the ban so you are not losing much by finding out what the prosecution case is. BUT, do not leave it as a not guilty plea until the actual trial date, because, as TipsyNurse said, CPS will apply for prosecution costs of £620. (Unless you do intent to run a full not guilty hearing)
 
Many thanks to you both for the replies, I am most grateful.

It seems to me that there would be little lost if I plead Not Guilty at the hearing and request full evidence to be disclosed, then decide what to do.

Regarding your question rufus of my ability to pay the costs. Would they require full payment immediately? Or, as with the fine, could I pay it by instalments if I produce proof of low funds and a State Pension as my only income? Could they go after my Wife for any of this?

Another point has occurred to me. When the police arrived at the scene they breathalysed me but I was unable to blow hard enough, I was then arrested. I seem to remember one of the PCs saying to the other one "He is not even trying". There is no mention on the charge sheet of the arrest, the breathalyser or even the RTA. Or, for that matter, The Hospital itself. My questions: -- Why was I arrested as there is no mention of it? I did try to blow into the roadside breathalyser but due to several health conditions I was unable. If the police deemed that I deliberately failed why no charge? Could I insist on seeing the result of the test? Can I insist on the police stating the reason that I was arrested? Would it have any relevance to the case as if I had not been lawfully arrested would the police have any right to request blood anyway? I seem to remember the PC throwing the mouthpiece of the breathalyser into the hedge at the side of the road, hopefully, if I am correct, that will show up on the camera evidence. My memory of everything that night is sketchy.

Hope that you can make sense of the above. Kind regards. -- flukey365
 
Just another quick point regarding whether or not they checked the alcohol level in the hospital blood sample. In the discharge letter it states "This man was admitted after a RTC of which there was a query as to alcohol excess. Bloods taken at admission were normal including TSH". It further adds details of my heart condition and the various traumas. I don`t know if I am clutching at straws. Any views?

Many thanks. -- flukey365
 
flukey365 said:
Another point has occurred to me. When the police arrived at the scene they breathalysed me but I was unable to blow hard enough, I was then arrested. I seem to remember one of the PCs saying to the other one "He is not even trying". There is no mention on the charge sheet of the arrest, the breathalyser or even the RTA. Or, for that matter, The Hospital itself. My questions: -- Why was I arrested as there is no mention of it? I did try to blow into the roadside breathalyser but due to several health conditions I was unable. If the police deemed that I deliberately failed why no charge? Could I insist on seeing the result of the test? Can I insist on the police stating the reason that I was arrested? Would it have any relevance to the case as if I had not been lawfully arrested would the police have any right to request blood anyway? I seem to remember the PC throwing the mouthpiece of the breathalyser into the hedge at the side of the road, hopefully, if I am correct, that will show up on the camera evidence. My memory of everything that night is sketchy.

Hope that you can make sense of the above. Kind regards. -- flukey365
Click to expand...

The road side breath test is a preliminary breath test that is used to give police an indication as to whether or not the level of alcohol in a persons system is likely to exceed the legal limit. The police have the right to request any driver involved in a road traffic accident to supply a specimen for analysis.

It is an offence to fail to provide a preliminary breath sample when required to do so and this is the reason that you were arrested. It is standard procedure, your arrest at the roadside for failing to co-operate with a preliminary breath test was not unlawful.

You wont have been charged with the failure to provide a preliminary road side breath test as you were subsequently charged with failing to provide an evidential blood specimen for analysis.

Your charge sheet provides details of the offence(s) you have been charged with, nothing more. All other details surrounding your case will be on other paperwork, notes, statements etc.
 
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Thank you Forum Moderator,

That has cleared up some of the issues.

I would like to know definitively, if possible, whether or not the court could chase my wife for the costs or fine if I lose at trial? I would offer to pay instalments but it would take years, time I realistically do not have. The issue of my wife`s possible involvement is crucial as if she could be asked to pay I would have to go for a guilty plea and limit the damage, something I desperately do not want to do.

I do not think that I could honestly undertake any community work whatsoever as I am, and becoming more so, very frail. In a charity shop I would be unable to stack shelves, wrap packages or even sweep the floor. I am unsteady and the charity shop manager would have a great deal to worry about if I was working there, it would be an accident waiting to happen. I am frankly useless! Although I am not too morbid, it is just the clock ticking. As stated I am not going to drive again anyway.

Thanks, as ever. -- flukey365
 
As an aside, my hearing was initially set for 2 January however I successfully gained an adjournment until the the 15 Jan. Fortunately I had kept the email informing me of this on my phone. Early this morning, at 1am, two police officers came to my house to arrest me for failing to attend court. They caused a huge amount of noise and flashing lights. One of the PCs was particularly obnoxious and was reluctant to listen to my explanation. His colleague looked at the email and whilst he was doing so the other one was telling me that they were taking me in. I told him to wait for his colleague to finish reading and to please be quiet.

Finally, after they had both viewed the email they agreed it was probably all a mistake. But then the mouthy one told me that they were only doing their job and that he could still arrest me! I was dumbfounded and I told him to go ahead and take me away, he declined when the other one calmed him. I then informed him that he had just threatened to arrest me on camera whilst in the full knowledge of my innocence. He denied he had said it to which I replied that it was on both of their cameras and I would be making a formal complaint. That had the desired effect.

An Inspector from the same police station had been dealing with my case and he was fully aware of my frailties, serious heart condition, plus the fact that I have never been convicted or even charged with any criminal offence until this case, I have not been convicted. I am a nearly seventy year old disabled man.

The thing is if I had not had the email evidence I would have been thrown in a cell for many hours as the court would not have been open until at least 9 o`clock. It could have killed me.

I have a seriously ill son, again the Inspector is aware of this. Neighbours came out when the police had gone as their concern was for my son who they are all very fond of. It is not just affecting me

I realise this is an unusual one but any thoughts would be appreciated as ever. -- flukey365
 
A warrant was issued for your arrest (albeit mistakenly). What do you expect them to do? They viewed your email and realised a mistake had been made. Move on.
 
The fault would rest with the court, not the Police. The court issues a warrant, and it directs the Constable to “arrest the person and forthwith bring the him before the court” a police officer has discretion about making an arrest for an offence, but in the case of a warrant he is directed to make an arrest, so technically the (very rude) Officer was correct, he could act on the warrant.anyone could have done the email or altered a court one to say anything, so at least they did use common sense and not act on the warrant.
You will be asked to fill in a means test form for court, it will ask you about YOUR income and outgoings, and your fine will be based on that. Your ability to pay the fine, and costs, will depend on your income, not anyone else’s. The minimum they will accept is £5 per week. (£10 per fortnight is the usual ruling) if you need expert evidence to support your case though, you can expect them to want payment up front!
 
Can I just clarify what you put about the adjournment? If you were bailed until 2nd January, you should have attended on that day. Who(and how) did you request the adjournment with - and who informed you of the new date in an email?
 
Many thanks for your replies, I am beginning to understand the procedure more. price1367 thanks for explaining the fines and costs issue I would be able to afford a fiver per week.

I have just received a call and I must go out for a while. I will reply in more details a little later. Really apppreciate you help and advice
 
Price - dont they also ask about dependants, Flukey are you your son carer? would you need you car to help him?
 
Flukey I would still make a complaint but not about the police more the court.

people must understand most police have little formal training in the law which they uphold but you would expect them too, basically they follow an experienced officer around and learn the ropes off them thats why so many cases are thrown out by the CPS because they dont know what they are doing half they time.
 
rufus said:
Price - dont they also ask about dependants, Flukey are you your son carer? would you need you car to help him?
Click to expand...
It doesn’t matter about the need to drive for a relative, a ban is mandatory for failing to supply if convicted.
The only issues tha magistrates have to decide are: “was the defendant reasonably suspected of being the driver of a motor vehicle?” And “was he then guilty of failing to supply a sample for analysis, without reasonable excuse?” (Having been lawfully required to provide a sample by an approved police officer)
 
I ment for the fines etc - I know its mandatory 12 months for failure to supply - been there done that
 
As I said in my first post and say your opinion about whether you were fit to give a sample they will listen nicely and then find you guilty with £620 costs.

The law only allows the court to find you not guilty if a doctor says you are unfit, or a nurse says you are unfit and a doctor doesn't disagree.

That is really important because the defences for failure to provide are narrow. If a doctor or nurse had actually said to you that you were unfit to give a sample, rather than generally unwell, you might have a case but if they didn't you must have the medical notes, otherwise it will be an expensive day out.

You cannot and must not try in court to give a medical opinion about whether you were fit to give a sample because the legislation specifically says it needs to come from a healthcare professional.

As regards to sentencing, the court will assume a minimum income a week if £140 if you say it is lower. If they are considering community service they will refer you to the probation service pending sentencing - they could consider a curfew or higher fine.

If you want to agree a payment plan you need to ask the magistrates before leaving court. Your wife's income does not matter to an extent, but it will not take you years to pay the fine because the court will be aware you must have some income to live, even if it is effectively a subsidy from your wife. You could try to say to the magistrates you have no income but they will be aware everyone needs money to survive, and will not believe you have so little income you can't make substantial payments unless you have a very good reason.

I can not emphasise enough your current defence seems doomed to expensive failure.
 
Many thanks again for all of your support. I think you are right TipsyNurse I am doomed to failure therefore I will bite the bullet and plead guilty however only after I have received the evidence and looked for any blatant errors, it should not make too much difference. This whole thing is now becoming too much for me and I really appreciate all of you kind people assisting me. I do receive my state pension and a little added however what I am left with is very little. My wife has some savings but as our Son could be needing a Heart and Lung Transplant she does not wish to have her money under threat, she might well need every penny. As stated she has no financial ties to me whatsoever, other than marriage.

price 367 -- I applied for the adjournment by royal mail in December. I had not been bailed, I was issued a charge by the police for failing to provide at a hospital, I was kept in for two days. The court followed up with details of time and date of the hearing (Jan 2nd). I gave the court the reasons why I needed an adjournment and they replied via email and informed me that a new date was now available, the 15 Jan. I did email back and thank them stating that the new date should not be a problem. I received nothing further although I was given a name. This was the same email that I received and which I showed to the police it had all the case references on it.

rufus - - I am no longer my Son`s carer although I used to be. He is an adult and no longer lives with us, but just a short distance from us. He has Cystic Fibrosis and is struggling. Sorry that I did not explain it very well earlier. To be honest the RTA caused major deterioration to my already frail health and I probably should not drive again. I have lost a lot of confidence and my heart condition should be declared to DVLA, it would definitely be game over then.

I agree that it was probably the courts error that an arrest warrant was issued but the police to call at that hour whilst knowing my age and disabilities was unforgivable IMO. They also did not show me anything such as the warrant. One of them merely showed his total lack of compassion and his bullying disposition. Ah well, soon be over.

Kind regards all and HNY. -- flukey365
 
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