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Thread: Cdt returns to normal after 2-4 wks (abstinence)

  1. #1
    chatjacker is offline Member
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    Default Cdt returns to normal after 2-4 wks (abstinence)

    I have seen a few ppl asking how long it takes for CDT to return to normal so have posted biomarkers on the table below.


    Marker Time to return to normal limits Type of drinking characterized Comments
    Gamma–glutamyltransferase 2–6 weeks of abstinence ∼ 70 drinks/wk for several weeks Many sources of false positives
    Aspartate aminotransferase 7 days, but considerable variability in declines with abstinence Unknown, but heavy Many sources of false positives
    Alanine aminotransferase Unknown Unknown, but heavy Many sources of false positives
    Less sensitive than aspartate aminotransferase
    Macrocytic volume Unknown but half–life ∼ 40 days Unknown, but heavy Slow return to normal limits even with abstinence
    Carbohydrate–deficient transferrin 2–4 weeks of abstinence 60+ g/d for at least 2 weeks Rare false positives
    Good indicator of relapse


  2. #2
    Mclanelli is offline Established Member
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    Default Re: Cdt returns to normal after 2-4 wks (abstinence)

    Quote Originally Posted by chatjacker View Post
    I have seen a few ppl asking how long it takes for CDT to return to normal so have posted biomarkers on the table below.


    Marker Time to return to normal limits Type of drinking characterized Comments
    Gamma–glutamyltransferase 2–6 weeks of abstinence ∼ 70 drinks/wk for several weeks Many sources of false positives
    Aspartate aminotransferase 7 days, but considerable variability in declines with abstinence Unknown, but heavy Many sources of false positives
    Alanine aminotransferase Unknown Unknown, but heavy Many sources of false positives
    Less sensitive than aspartate aminotransferase
    Macrocytic volume Unknown but half–life ∼ 40 days Unknown, but heavy Slow return to normal limits even with abstinence
    Carbohydrate–deficient transferrin 2–4 weeks of abstinence 60+ g/d for at least 2 weeks Rare false positives
    Good indicator of relapse

    The problem with this is the source. Its not accurate. There are websites, with actual doctors notes from all over Europe and the US, who state that a period of 12 weeks is required for CDT levels to become normal after periods of drinking.

    You have two choices regarding this issue. You can be safe and take the advice of medical professionals like your own GP, or professional people from organisations like TTC (Drink Awareness Course) Or you can convince yourself that everything will be okay with literature like this. It won't be okay. And if you fail all the people who said it only takes four weeks will go missing. They have nothing to lose. People have failed the DVLA medical on their CDT score for only abstaining for similar periods to the ones highlighted above. Fact.

    M

  3. #3
    chatjacker is offline Member
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    Default Re: Cdt returns to normal after 2-4 wks (abstinence)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mclanelli View Post
    The problem with this is the source. Its not accurate. There are websites, with actual doctors notes from all over Europe and the US, who state that a period of 12 weeks is required for CDT levels to become normal after periods of drinking.

    You have two choices regarding this issue. You can be safe and take the advice of medical professionals like your own GP, or professional people from organisations like TTC (Drink Awareness Course) Or you can convince yourself that everything will be okay with literature like this. It won't be okay. And if you fail all the people who said it only takes four weeks will go missing. They have nothing to lose. People have failed the DVLA medical on their CDT score for only abstaining for similar periods to the ones highlighted above. Fact.

    M
    Actually my research was taken from thw NIAAA/NIH.. and involved studies by some of the worlds experts on biomarkers (a list that helped compile the info is below). And a bit of info on the NIAAA.

    Sorry but you carry on listening to your G.P who probably has no actual specialist expertise on the subject of CDT or other biomarkers.

    Me personally, ive abstained 8 weeks and will be 10 by the time i have an appointment along with a good diet and pretty intensive physical (cardiovascular) training program.. not for the benefit of a CDT Test but a general health kick/change of lifestyle.

    People who have NEVER drunk alcohol can have increased CDT just as a result of smoking tobacco so that would explain a few people failing the test after short periods of abstinence.. have a read.. educate yourself!
    John P. Allen, Ph.D., M.P.A.,* Pekka Sillanaukee, Ph.D.,† Nuria Strid, Ph.D.,‡ and Raye Z. Litten, Ph.D.§

    *Scientific Consultant to the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, Bethesda, MD
    † Tampere University Hospital, Research Unit and Tampere University, Medical School, Tampere, Finland
    ‡ NS Associates, Stentorp, Sweden
    § Chief, Treatment Research Branch, Division of Clinical and Prevention Research, National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, Bethesda, MD


    About NIAAA

    The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA) is one of the 27 institutes and centers that comprise the National Institutes of Health (NIH). NIAAA supports and conducts research on the impact of alcohol use on human health and well-being. It is the largest funder of alcohol research in the world.

    NIAAA leads the national effort to reduce alcohol-related problems by:

    • Conducting and supporting alcohol-related research in a wide range of scientific areas including genetics, neuroscience, epidemiology, prevention, and treatment.
    • Coordinating and collaborating with other research institutes and federal programs on alcohol-related issues.
    • Collaborating with international, national, state, and local institutions, organizations, agencies, and programs engaged in alcohol-related work.
    • Translating and disseminating research findings to health care providers, researchers, policymakers, and the public.

    Through both research within NIAAA, and by funding grants at institutions worldwide, NIAAA aims to:

    • Better understand the health risks and benefits of consuming alcohol, as well as why it can cause addiction.
    • Reveal the biological and socio-cultural origins of why people respond to alcohol differently.
    • Remove the stigma associated with alcohol problems.
    • Develop effective prevention and treatment strategies that address the physical, behavioral, and social risks that result from both excessive drinking, and underage alcohol consumption.

    NIAAA-funded discoveries have important implications for improving the health and well-being of all people.
    Learn more about the NIAAA:


  4. #4
    price1367 is online now TTC Group Associate Director
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    Default Re: Cdt returns to normal after 2-4 wks (abstinence)

    There is some merit in both of the above views.
    the period needed for CDT to return to 'normal' levels varies according to the level it has elevated to.
    if there has been heavy drinking for some time, then 12 weeks abstenance may well be necessary.
    In the chart quoted by Chatjacker, where 2- 4 weeks is quoted, you will see that the "type of drink characterised" is quoted as 60g per day for 2 plus weeks. This is clearly an Americal reference, where they prefer to quote a unit as being 8g of alcohol, whereas we quote it as 10ml. Therefore they indicated 2 - 4 weeks abstenance for someone drinking 7 1/2 units of alcohol per day for a fortnight....... 2 1/2 pints of Stella or 3 X 250ml glasses of wine at 10% abv.
    I have just returned from 2 weeks holiday and probably managed that.....! , but it is not my regular habit.
    many people on here quote drinking far in excess of that amount, not just on holiday but on a week after week basis, sometimes for years. In those cases, 2-4 weeks will not be nearly enough for CDT levels to normalise. I saw a half life quoted for CDT at 20 days, I have seen research that quotes more like 8-15 days so even the experts disagree. Which version is correct would have a big impact on the time taken for normalisation.
    So you have to ask yourself: "do I want to do as little as possible and hope I pass the medical?...... Or do I want to be well prepared and confident of passing?"

  5. #5
    Mclanelli is offline Established Member
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    Default Re: Cdt returns to normal after 2-4 wks (abstinence)

    Quote Originally Posted by chatjacker View Post
    Actually my research was taken from thw NIAAA/NIH.. and involved studies by some of the worlds experts on biomarkers (a list that helped compile the info is below). And a bit of info on the NIAAA.

    Sorry but you carry on listening to your G.P who probably has no actual specialist expertise on the subject of CDT or other biomarkers.

    Me personally, ive abstained 8 weeks and will be 10 by the time i have an appointment along with a good diet and pretty intensive physical (cardiovascular) training program.. not for the benefit of a CDT Test but a general health kick/change of lifestyle.

    People who have NEVER drunk alcohol can have increased CDT just as a result of smoking tobacco so that would explain a few people failing the test after short periods of abstinence.. have a read.. educate yourself!
    John P. Allen, Ph.D., M.P.A.,* Pekka Sillanaukee, Ph.D.,† Nuria Strid, Ph.D.,‡ and Raye Z. Litten, Ph.D.§

    *Scientific Consultant to the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, Bethesda, MD
    † Tampere University Hospital, Research Unit and Tampere University, Medical School, Tampere, Finland
    ‡ NS Associates, Stentorp, Sweden
    § Chief, Treatment Research Branch, Division of Clinical and Prevention Research, National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, Bethesda, MD



    About NIAAA

    The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA) is one of the 27 institutes and centers that comprise the National Institutes of Health (NIH). NIAAA supports and conducts research on the impact of alcohol use on human health and well-being. It is the largest funder of alcohol research in the world.

    NIAAA leads the national effort to reduce alcohol-related problems by:

    • Conducting and supporting alcohol-related research in a wide range of scientific areas including genetics, neuroscience, epidemiology, prevention, and treatment.
    • Coordinating and collaborating with other research institutes and federal programs on alcohol-related issues.
    • Collaborating with international, national, state, and local institutions, organizations, agencies, and programs engaged in alcohol-related work.
    • Translating and disseminating research findings to health care providers, researchers, policymakers, and the public.

    Through both research within NIAAA, and by funding grants at institutions worldwide, NIAAA aims to:

    • Better understand the health risks and benefits of consuming alcohol, as well as why it can cause addiction.
    • Reveal the biological and socio-cultural origins of why people respond to alcohol differently.
    • Remove the stigma associated with alcohol problems.
    • Develop effective prevention and treatment strategies that address the physical, behavioral, and social risks that result from both excessive drinking, and underage alcohol consumption.

    NIAAA-funded discoveries have important implications for improving the health and well-being of all people.
    Learn more about the NIAAA:

    "Actually my research was taken from thw NIAAA/NIH.. and involved studies by some of the worlds experts on biomarkers (a list that helped compile the info is below). And a bit of info on the NIAAA"

    Your research? You mean the information which you have cut and pasted from a random internet source. Yes, it has merit, I have viewed the same information previously. My point was that there are equally credible sources that have opposite views. As such, it leaves people with a dilemma, in which case the best advice would be to go with the longer period of abstinence of all those suggested.


    "Sorry but you carry on listening to your G.P who probably has no actual specialist expertise on the subject of CDT or other biomarkers"

    I have never spoken to a GP regarding the subject of CDT, as I have never had cause to do so. I merely pointed out that along with the various sources of information available, they are an alternative outlet; who will almost certainly err on the side of caution when giving out advice on periods of abstinence. Although a GP would not claim to be a specialist on the subject of CDT and abstinence periods, I do feel that is safe to assume that they do have a far better understanding in "general" terms as a "practitioner" (GP) than what you do, when it comes to this subject.

    "People who have NEVER drunk alcohol can have increased CDT just as a result of smoking tobacco so that would explain a few people failing the test after short periods of abstinence.. have a read.. educate yourself"


    This is nonsense. CDT levels and in particular Transferrin are affected by raised ethanol levels. People do not fail this test due to smoking. Fact.

    I think you should maybe check the credibility of some the websites which you have been visiting; and before offering condescending advice on self education, you should maybe first pause to remember why it is that you are in your current situation.

    Regards
    M

  6. #6
    chatjacker is offline Member
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    Default Re: Cdt returns to normal after 2-4 wks (abstinence)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mclanelli View Post
    "Actually my research was taken from thw NIAAA/NIH.. and involved studies by some of the worlds experts on biomarkers (a list that helped compile the info is below). And a bit of info on the NIAAA"

    Your research? You mean the information which you have cut and pasted from a random internet source. Yes, it has merit, I have viewed the same information previously. My point was that there are equally credible sources that have opposite views. As such, it leaves people with a dilemma, in which case the best advice would be to go with the longer period of abstinence of all those suggested.


    "Sorry but you carry on listening to your G.P who probably has no actual specialist expertise on the subject of CDT or other biomarkers"

    I have never spoken to a GP regarding the subject of CDT, as I have never had cause to do so. I merely pointed out that along with the various sources of information available, they are an alternative outlet; who will almost certainly err on the side of caution when giving out advice on periods of abstinence. Although a GP would not claim to be a specialist on the subject of CDT and abstinence periods, I do feel that is safe to assume that they do have a far better understanding in "general" terms as a "practitioner" (GP) than what you do, when it comes to this subject.

    "People who have NEVER drunk alcohol can have increased CDT just as a result of smoking tobacco so that would explain a few people failing the test after short periods of abstinence.. have a read.. educate yourself"


    This is nonsense. CDT levels and in particular Transferrin are affected by raised ethanol levels. People do not fail this test due to smoking. Fact.

    I think you should maybe check the credibility of some the websites which you have been visiting; and before offering condescending advice on self education, you should maybe first pause to remember why it is that you are in your current situation.

    Regards
    M
    M when you tried to rubbish my info with your response you said... and I quote YOU directly "there are websites, with actual Doctors" lol.. so I can only assume that you have been visiting such sites to come to the conclusion that the timescale is 12 weeks??.. and you have provided no actual Doctors names or any names of the professional organisations that you are basing your 12 week timescale on. If you cared to look where I got my info from you would have seen that it was from the NIAAA who are the worlds LARGEST FUNDERS OF ALCOHOL RESEARCH IN THE WORLD.
    Also you mentioned the U.S in your reply, well the NIAAA The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA) is the lead agency for U.S. research on alcohol abuse, alcoholism, and other health and developmental effects of alcohol use. Although CDT Testing actually came from Sweden I believe.

    Also tobacco smoking is widely known to have an affect on CDT levels.. to quote THE U.S NATIONAL LIBRARY OF MEDICINE AND THE NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH "Body mass index, variables associated with metabolic syndrome, and smoking had notable effects on the probability of an abnormal CDT result .".. But i suppose if you want to go down the "there are websites, with actual Doctors" route then dont let me stop you.

    The fact is I can back up the info I have supplied with actual globally recognised professional and institutions so therefor wouldnt exactly say id been copy pasting from dodgy websites.. take the experts for example who compiled the chart of biomarkers.. they are experts in this field and not your average g.p, website or staff at a drink driving course. I do not claim to be an expert myself I am merely very thorough when researching any subject and only use trusted, viable sources that have been backed up by experts.
    In this case you are trying to imply that these people that I used info from (some of the worlds experts on alcohol biomarkers) are less informed than you are. Id be interested to see if your 12 week timescale actually had any biomarker experts behind them or if you have simply read bits from some of the "websites, with actual Doctors" you were talking about. And if you cant provide direct quotes from such individuals and organisations with specific and specialist alcohol biomarker expertise then why would post on this forum that you know the period to be 12 weeks. While you are frantically googling it do a bit more research on the affects smoking tobacco can have on CDT results, im sure you wont find it hard to get this info as it is pretty widely known to be a factor.

  7. #7
    shouldaknownbetter is offline Established Member
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    Default Re: Cdt returns to normal after 2-4 wks (abstinence)

    I have used this forum over the last six months or so without posting anything of note. It has been a source of reassurance and comfort in a very stressful time. I only came across this thread because I was looking for the previous post I'd seen with the contact details for the lab at King's College and I'm only posting now because I feel there is a lot of varying information (no malice being intended I'm sure) about. Some that can frighten the life out of you and some that could seriously damage your chances of a speedy return to motoring.

    My medical exam was on Monday 25th January at 0930hrs. My last day of alcohol consumption was Friday 1st January, finishing my last drink at approximately 1800hrs. I had 2 x 250ml of Sauvignon Blanc at 12.5%= 6.25 units. In the months leading up to this I had consumed approximately 9/10 units (750ml/a bottle) of similar strength wine a day, very rarely having a day off. I would have liked to put my medical off a little longer but I didn't know about the 6 week window. If I had I would have delayed my application by a week or so to get Christmas out of the way. During my 23 whole dry days I exercised everyday(I do this anyway), drank a mug of 1/2 squeezed lemon and 2 tspns of grated raw ginger root mixed with hot water (like a tea) every morning. I upped my daily water intake of 3 pints to approximately 6/7 pints and took milk thistle, turmeric and artichoke supplements and made sure my (normally fairly healthy (ignoring the wine)) diet was packed full of leafy green vegetables and fruit, especially apples. Basically if a food was seen to have liver supporting or body cleansing properties, I ate it.

    I called DVLA today, with much trepidation, to get an update on my application and was informed that they had sent my licence out on Tuesday February 2nd. I asked for the CDT reading and was told that she didn't know what it was but 'it must have been low cos you've been sent a full 10 year licence'. Now I do realise that simply means I fell within the 'green traffic light' parameters but after reading some scary advice here, I was convinced that I would only achieve an 'amber'.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that obviously the longer you abstain (or drink moderately if you want to chance it) the better but it is possible to pass the medical with 3-4 weeks abstinence, as my bone dry 23 days shows. As with all things biological/medical, everyBODY is literally different, and so many variables come into play. I intend to write to DVLA to get my actual results so I will update on this thread (unless someone can furnish me with the King's lab phone number) and anyone going forward into the medical minefield is welcome to contact me, if I can help or reassure in anyway, I would be very happy to do so.

    Lastly, I would like to thank mostly everyone who regularly posts here (especially the poster called Price), without knowing it you have helped me and I'm sure many other 'silent participants' who like me, haven't had the confidence or have been too ashamed to post.

  8. #8
    hewl is offline Member
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    Default Re: Cdt returns to normal after 2-4 wks (abstinence)

    Quote Originally Posted by chatjacker View Post
    M when you tried to rubbish my info with your response you said... and I quote YOU directly "there are websites, with actual Doctors" lol..
    But, you havent quoted him. You have cut out most of what he said.

    Just to clear up the confusion for you, what he said was this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mclanelli View Post
    There are websites, with actual doctors notes from all over Europe and the US, who state that a period of 12 weeks is required for CDT levels to become normal after periods of drinking.
    It is quite obvious M is referring to websites with Doctors notes not websites with actual Doctors.

    Anyway, to add my two cents and cut a long story short, it is obvious to most (if not you) that abstaining for the longest recommended time rather than the shortest is going to increase the chances of passing a CDT Test. Pretty simple really huh?

  9. #9
    chatjacker is offline Member
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    Default Re: Cdt returns to normal after 2-4 wks (abstinence)

    Quote Originally Posted by hewl View Post
    But, you havent quoted him. You have cut out most of what he said.

    Just to clear up the confusion for you, what he said was this:



    It is quite obvious M is referring to websites with Doctors notes not websites with actual Doctors.

    Anyway, to add my two cents and cut a long story short, it is obvious to most (if not you) that abstaining for the longest recommended time rather than the shortest is going to increase the chances of passing a CDT Test. Pretty simple really huh?
    Hewl i didnt use his whole quote but the point i was making is M rubbished the timescale I had provided by saying basically that I had been copy pasting from poor websites and getting the wrong facts.. but then admitted at the same time that he had been googling websites with Doctors notes, not scientists. Seemed a bit silly to try to rubbish my post by basically saying.. you have googled websites so you are wrong because i have also googled websites lol
    Anyway, I wasnt recommending anyone abstain for 2-4 weeks but simply pointing out what the scientists with expertise in the subject and also the leading organisations say is the required timescale for CDT levels to return to normal after heavy drinking.
    Its no good panicking people and filling them with dread (they are already probably stressed out as it is) by giving them a timescale that isnt actually based on any informed research or advice from biomarker experts. The fact that M isnt aware that smoking can also have an impact on CDT levels also made me question the source of M's 12 week timescale as thorough research would have made him aware of smoking having an effect on CDT scores.

    In my opinion peoples attitudes and lifestyle need to change over a long period after a drink driving ban and 2-4 or even 12 weeks isnt really enough to change that. I have seen a lot of people on here and other forums that simply want to dry out at the last opportunity to pass the test and will then carry on (some immediately after the test, some even as a celebration of staying sober long enough to attempt the test) heavy drinking.
    Some people will inevitably run the risk of getting caught drink driving again or run the risk of having an accident as a result of drinking because their lifestyle or attitudes have not changed. No biomarker test can test for the the possibility of an individual getting behind the wheel after drinking, but you can often tell when that chance is increased on these forums when people are trying to work out exact dates that they need to stop drinking just for the purpose of passing the test and not because they feel they should for the benefit of their own or other peoples health and safety.

  10. #10
    Mclanelli is offline Established Member
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    Default Re: Cdt returns to normal after 2-4 wks (abstinence)

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    I think people have worked out what "chatjacker"s real intentions are on this forum. The username says it all really. Why anybody would choose such a username on a site like this with the hope of being taken seriously, I don't know.

    This individual has a serious attitude problem. You can see that from the pointless ramblings that follow any suggestion that his information may not be accurate. Miss-quotes and a morbid obsession of references to "googling" seem to feature heavily in this individuals poorly constructed grammar rants. Add to the mix the 1:30 am postings, and it is clear that this person is having difficulty filling the daytime hours with meaningful employment.

    One can only wonder as to why the offers aren't flooding in for the self proclaimed "extensive researcher"

    Not the sharpest tool in the box, but a tool none the less. You would hope that even the bluntest of instruments could be put to meaningful use throughout the day; sadly not, and much to our misfortune.

    On a final technical note, and not one of personality disorders: Smoking will possibly increase a persons sensitivity to CDT, when and only when alcohol/ethanol is consumed. Even then, the sensitivity is so moderate that it is irrelevant. Smoking is not known to cause false positives with regards to the CDT Test. Indeed, it would be illogical for the DVLA to have in place an alcohol measurement test that could be significantly influenced by smoking. If that was the case, then the DVLA would be inundated with successful appeals at Magistrate level by people who had failed the test; on the grounds that smoking had influenced their results. No such appeals have taken place, because smoking will have no effect on your final CDT percentage.

    I bid you adieu.

    M
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