Top ten causes of road accidents in Britain

Convicted Driver Insurance
I'm struggling to find anything that confirms your assertion that no alcohol was involved. Any of the drivers in the 108,479 accidents could have consumed some level of alcohol. If they were breathalysed and registered below the legal limit, then no potential crime has been committed based upon alcohol consumption and as such it would not be recorded. The chances that all of these drivers blew 0 at the roadside? Zero. A significant will have blown between 1 and 35. This will have impacted their perception and reaction times.

From looking at this and your previous posts, I appreciate that you have an 'agenda' because of your own experiences with the UK drink drive laws.
Trying to paint drink drivers caught before causing an accident as some sort of persecuted minority who didn't do anything wrong is disingenuous.

When you set out in a vehicle knowing that you have consumed alcohol this is a pre-meditated act. You are taking a chance that if caught you will blow under, you are taking a chance that you won't be stopped at all. More importantly, you are taking a chance with other people's lives. You do not have the right to take that particular chance which is why the law is what it is.

Hi Alan and thanks for your response to my posting
You imply that the system hasn’t treated my unfairly and I’m stuck in an endless loop
of self pity and bitterness.

OK you are welcome to your opinion however, here is my response regarding myself being
treated unfairly by the law.

My widowed Mother was beaten up by her new partner in 1976. I called the Police who said it was a domestic incident and wouldn’t attend.

One of my daughters was run over and quite badly injured in 1992 by a motorist who was incompetent and blamed for the incident. The motorist wasn’t prosecuted.

In 1995 a woman crashed into the back of my car due to incompetence and lack of
concentration. She caused considerable damage to my car but wasn’t prosecuted or disqualified.

My Wife and eldest daughter were physically beaten by two Police officers in 1998 for
no reason. The two Police officers later denied all knowledge of the incident despite the fact that many people witnessed the incident.

In 2011 a man broke into my house and caused a lot of damage.
He was arrested and interviewed by the Police. The offender admitted his actions and
finger prints taken from my house proved he was the offender.
Despite this, the Police dropped the case I and had to repair the damage to my house
using my pension which took me a long time to save up.

In 2012 several thugs broke into my eldest daughters house and beat her up in front of my
three grandchildren.
The Police caught them and then dropped the case due to lack of evidence despite there
being several witnesses who were ignored even though they were willing to come forward to give evidence.

I therefore consider I have been treated very unfairly by the law even though you seem
to think otherwise.
Maybe you think that my mother, wife and daughter being assaulted and the Police taking no action is fine as long as the offenders hadn't been drinking.

Jim.
 
Hi Alan and thanks for your response to my posting
You imply that the system hasn’t treated my unfairly and I’m stuck in an endless loop
of self pity and bitterness.

OK you are welcome to your opinion however, here is my response regarding myself being
treated unfairly by the law.

My widowed Mother was beaten up by her new partner in 1976. I called the Police who said it was a domestic incident and wouldn’t attend.

One of my daughters was run over and quite badly injured in 1992 by a motorist who was incompetent and blamed for the incident. The motorist wasn’t prosecuted.

In 1995 a woman crashed into the back of my car due to incompetence and lack of
concentration. She caused considerable damage to my car but wasn’t prosecuted or disqualified.

My Wife and eldest daughter were physically beaten by two Police officers in 1998 for
no reason. The two Police officers later denied all knowledge of the incident despite the fact that many people witnessed the incident.

In 2011 a man broke into my house and caused a lot of damage.
He was arrested and interviewed by the Police. The offender admitted his actions and
finger prints taken from my house proved he was the offender.
Despite this, the Police dropped the case I and had to repair the damage to my house
using my pension which took me a long time to save up.

In 2012 several thugs broke into my eldest daughters house and beat her up in front of my
three grandchildren.
The Police caught them and then dropped the case due to lack of evidence despite there
being several witnesses who were ignored even though they were willing to come forward to give evidence.

I therefore consider I have been treated very unfairly by the law even though you seem
to think otherwise.
Maybe you think that my mother, wife and daughter being assaulted and the Police taking no action is fine as long as the offenders hadn't been drinking.

Jim.
With all due respect Jim, this list you have provided seems highly implausible. Stating one or two might have given some credibility to your bitterness but this just looks faintly ridiculous.
 
Hi Alan and thanks for your response to my posting
You imply that the system hasn’t treated my unfairly and I’m stuck in an endless loop
of self pity and bitterness.

OK you are welcome to your opinion however, here is my response regarding myself being
treated unfairly by the law.

My widowed Mother was beaten up by her new partner in 1976. I called the Police who said it was a domestic incident and wouldn’t attend.

One of my daughters was run over and quite badly injured in 1992 by a motorist who was incompetent and blamed for the incident. The motorist wasn’t prosecuted.

In 1995 a woman crashed into the back of my car due to incompetence and lack of
concentration. She caused considerable damage to my car but wasn’t prosecuted or disqualified.

My Wife and eldest daughter were physically beaten by two Police officers in 1998 for
no reason. The two Police officers later denied all knowledge of the incident despite the fact that many people witnessed the incident.

In 2011 a man broke into my house and caused a lot of damage.
He was arrested and interviewed by the Police. The offender admitted his actions and
finger prints taken from my house proved he was the offender.
Despite this, the Police dropped the case I and had to repair the damage to my house
using my pension which took me a long time to save up.

In 2012 several thugs broke into my eldest daughters house and beat her up in front of my
three grandchildren.
The Police caught them and then dropped the case due to lack of evidence despite there
being several witnesses who were ignored even though they were willing to come forward to give evidence.

I therefore consider I have been treated very unfairly by the law even though you seem
to think otherwise.
Maybe you think that my mother, wife and daughter being assaulted and the Police taking no action is fine as long as the offenders hadn't been drinking.

Jim.
Hi Jim. From reading your previous posts, weren't you also abducted from your house by incompetent aliens in 2001 and subjected to medical experiments to prove that intelligent life on Earth doesn't exist? These aliens handed themselves in to police and fully admitted their part in the abduction but were alowed to go free and return to Zillon from the planet Tharg? British justice eh?
 
...going back to the original thread in hand.

Isn't driving while tired possibly just as dangerous as drink driving? It seems to have all the key ingredients to DD - the driver gets in their car feeling totally shattered knowing they not 100% functunal to drive but they still do!!!!!

In 2001, Gary Hart caused one of the biggest rail disasters in UK history when he fell asleep at the wheel of his Land Rover and ended up veering off the M62 near Selby, North Yorks and onto the tracks of the East Coast mainline. At his trial, it was alleged Hart had not slept for up to 72 hours prior to the crash.

Being physically fatigued while driving or in charge of a motor vehicle can & never will be made a criminal offence. For a start no one will ever be able to get home after a night shift!!! My point is that many people jump on the band wagon and judge drink drivers as the worst of the worst which I disagree with.

I may be playing devil's advocate here but as a convicted DD myself I always turn the tables on people who get on their soap box about how dangerous we are. I am not defending my actions for a second, but the original content of this thread suggests that you can be just as dangerous behind the wheel of a car while being stone cold sober.

CJ
 
With all due respect Jim, this list you have provided seems highly implausible. Stating one or two might have given some credibility to your bitterness but this just looks faintly ridiculous.

There are a few more things I forgot to mention in my previous post.

In 1992, my car was stolen by a man who was stoned on Heroin.
The Police caught the offender and took him to court.
I was awarded damages in the court case.
I am still awaiting money from the offender all these years later.
I complained to the court but my complaint was ignored.

In 1997 Police raided my house with a search warrant.
The Police accused me of using radio equipment to illegally monitor Police
radio messages because there were several radio masts attached to my house.
I explained that I was a fully licenced radio amateur.
They came into my radio room and saw lots of radio equipment and said they have
never heard of amateur radio.
The Police were preparing to arrest me and seize all my radio equipment.
However, they then heard Morse Code from one of my radio transceivers and
decided to leave my house.
This incident cost me a day’s pay as I couldn’t attend work due to the Police
bungling intrusion.
I am still awaiting an apology from the Police.

.


In 1998 I had my car stolen. The Police gave me a crime reference number.
I’ve never heard anything since.


My son was attacked by a bunch of thugs back in 2012.
He wasn’t seriously injured but was quite badly beaten up.
The Police said they knew who the thugs were but dropped the case due to
lack of evidence.

In 2017 I noticed several young motorists parked up near some garages at the rear
of my house. They were smoking illegal substances and all my neighbours noticed
the smell.
Needless to say, I reported this to the Police who have since done nothing about it.

In 2018 I took in a lodger. A heavily built young man of 28 years old.
He turned out to be a bad lodger who didn’t pay his rent.
He was smoking an illegal substance that smells like burning rubber.
I think the drug is called Spice.
Amazingly he was taking driving lessons after smoking this stuff.
I informed the local Police of his behaviour and gave them my home address.
Needless to say the Police did nothing about it.

Now according to Alan I haven’t been treated unfairly by the law.
Pull the other leg Alan, it’s got bells on chum.

I am of the impression that the Police are just motorist chasing, tax collecting
protectors of the state.

I also get the impression that the law exists mainly for the sake of itself.

Jim
 
There are a few more things I forgot to mention in my previous post.

In 1992, my car was stolen by a man who was stoned on Heroin.
The Police caught the offender and took him to court.
I was awarded damages in the court case.
I am still awaiting money from the offender all these years later.
I complained to the court but my complaint was ignored.

In 1997 Police raided my house with a search warrant.
The Police accused me of using radio equipment to illegally monitor Police
radio messages because there were several radio masts attached to my house.
I explained that I was a fully licenced radio amateur.
They came into my radio room and saw lots of radio equipment and said they have
never heard of amateur radio.
The Police were preparing to arrest me and seize all my radio equipment.
However, they then heard Morse Code from one of my radio transceivers and
decided to leave my house.
This incident cost me a day’s pay as I couldn’t attend work due to the Police
bungling intrusion.
I am still awaiting an apology from the Police.

.


In 1998 I had my car stolen. The Police gave me a crime reference number.
I’ve never heard anything since.


My son was attacked by a bunch of thugs back in 2012.
He wasn’t seriously injured but was quite badly beaten up.
The Police said they knew who the thugs were but dropped the case due to
lack of evidence.

In 2017 I noticed several young motorists parked up near some garages at the rear
of my house. They were smoking illegal substances and all my neighbours noticed
the smell.
Needless to say, I reported this to the Police who have since done nothing about it.

In 2018 I took in a lodger. A heavily built young man of 28 years old.
He turned out to be a bad lodger who didn’t pay his rent.
He was smoking an illegal substance that smells like burning rubber.
I think the drug is called Spice.
Amazingly he was taking driving lessons after smoking this stuff.
I informed the local Police of his behaviour and gave them my home address.
Needless to say the Police did nothing about it.

Now according to Alan I haven’t been treated unfairly by the law.
Pull the other leg Alan, it’s got bells on chum.

I am of the impression that the Police are just motorist chasing, tax collecting
protectors of the state.

I also get the impression that the law exists mainly for the sake of itself.

Jim
Hi Jim. Judging from this post it seems you may have spent a little too much time in the vicinity of your Spice smoking lodger and the young motorists at the rear of your house.
 
I'm not a fan of the police either & but to be realistic the police numbers in England & Wales have now fallen to their lowest numbers in over 40 years and you take into account that the police are now dealing with four times as many reported incidents as they were back then.

Many incidents in the police are simply not dealt with because they do not have the time or resources to deal with them. I get pissed off at anti-social behaviour and teenagers creating issues in the housing estate where I live but the police don't bother responding to residents concerns because it is very low level in comparison to a suicidal missing from home or a violent domestic incident involving young children. By the time a patrol may come available it's too late & there is no point sending anyone out to it.

Regarding jimdavis saying the police didn't take action over the allegations made against other individuals - I will tell you now that unless there is independent evidence to support any wrong doing, generally most cases will not be taken further because the Crown Prosecution Service will not authorise charges when the accused disputes any wrong doing. Any scenario with a one on one crime report will generally get binned by the police these days - this is a fact.They always insist there is a strong likelihood of conviction at court otherwise they will not run with it!!!
 
I'm not a fan of the police either & but to be realistic the police numbers in England & Wales have now fallen to their lowest numbers in over 40 years and you take into account that the police are now dealing with four times as many reported incidents as they were back then.

Many incidents in the police are simply not dealt with because they do not have the time or resources to deal with them. I get pissed off at anti-social behaviour and teenagers creating issues in the housing estate where I live but the police don't bother responding to residents concerns because it is very low level in comparison to a suicidal missing from home or a violent domestic incident involving young children. By the time a patrol may come available it's too late & there is no point sending anyone out to it.

Regarding jimdavis saying the police didn't take action over the allegations made against other individuals - I will tell you now that unless there is independent evidence to support any wrong doing, generally most cases will not be taken further because the Crown Prosecution Service will not authorise charges when the accused disputes any wrong doing. Any scenario with a one on one crime report will generally get binned by the police these days - this is a fact.They always insist there is a strong likelihood of conviction at court otherwise they will not run with it!!!

Also spice was a legal high until last year, the police didn't come because his lodger wasn't breaking the law. You could buy spice in newsagents and off licences.

That lodger paid his way and is entitled to relax in the place where he is paying rent as he sees fit as long as he isn't smoking indoors he has done nothing wrong, absoloute scum move reporting him to the police.
 
...going back to the original thread in hand.

Isn't driving while tired possibly just as dangerous as drink driving? It seems to have all the key ingredients to DD - the driver gets in their car feeling totally shattered knowing they not 100% functunal to drive but they still do!!!!!

<snip>

I may be playing devil's advocate here but as a convicted DD myself I always turn the tables on people who get on their soap box about how dangerous we are. I am not defending my actions for a second, but the original content of this thread suggests that you can be just as dangerous behind the wheel of a car while being stone cold sober.

CJ

Absolutely - agree 100%. The granularisation of everything only serves to make things so complex that you need a lawyer to navigate them at great expense (site admins hover over the kill button!)

Just have two laws: Driving without Due Care and Dangerous Driving

There are many on these forums that are probably so tolerant to alcohol that they simply don't get intoxicated. However, driving with mother-in-law in the cars is downright lethal !!

Grateful to the OP for the debate.
 
...going back to the original thread in hand.

Isn't driving while tired possibly just as dangerous as drink driving? It seems to have all the key ingredients to DD - the driver gets in their car feeling totally shattered knowing they not 100% functunal to drive but they still do!!!!!

In 2001, Gary Hart caused one of the biggest rail disasters in UK history when he fell asleep at the wheel of his Land Rover and ended up veering off the M62 near Selby, North Yorks and onto the tracks of the East Coast mainline. At his trial, it was alleged Hart had not slept for up to 72 hours prior to the crash.

Being physically fatigued while driving or in charge of a motor vehicle can & never will be made a criminal offence. For a start no one will ever be able to get home after a night shift!!! My point is that many people jump on the band wagon and judge drink drivers as the worst of the worst which I disagree with.

I may be playing devil's advocate here but as a convicted DD myself I always turn the tables on people who get on their soap box about how dangerous we are. I am not defending my actions for a second, but the original content of this thread suggests that you can be just as dangerous behind the wheel of a car while being stone cold sober.

CJ
Hi. I agree with the contradictions you raise up to a point. I remember the Gary Hart case well and this is the reason all road bridges above railways now have crash barriers along all sides leading up to them. The issue with the list in the original post is that you cannot prove that the driver set off on the journey with the intention of, for example, not looking properly or driving with excess speed. With drink driving there is a mechanism for measuring the breath alcohol and/or blood alcohol and/or urine alcohol and can hence prove that the driver set off while under the influence of alcohol. This can clearly be shown as a pre-meditated act and has a criminal conviction associated it upon conviction of the offence. There is no question that drink drivers are dangerous, as are speeders. The difference between the drink driver and the innattentive driver is that the drink driver knew they were risking the wellbeing of others before they got behind the wheel.
 
People will react to alcohol in different ways. What we have is a 'one-size fits all' measure. It's a line in the sand that some people will fall at the extremes of in terms of driving ability. I think the "stand-on-one-leg and touch your nose with your eyes closed", that you see on the US TV shows is a better indicator of risk than a statute measure doled out by a machine.

Do police officers have the discretion still not to arrest at roadside or do they have to follow potential-cause rather than symptoms ?

The only distinction that I see between a drink-driver and a tired-driver is that, in the former the symptoms can be measured. Both are relatively dangerous at the time of getting into a vehicle although tiredness will increase in both situations. It would be interesting to hear the observations of a police officer on this as, personally, I have seen vehicles driving erratically regularly on the motorways. Maybe it would be safer to forget about this 'alcohol-interface' they propose on car ignitions and use vehicle telematics to relay any form of consistent abnormal driving through the same control systems as ANPR ??

I'm beginning to drift into soapbox mode but the thoughts are there.
 
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