The beginning of being caught drink driving

Convicted Driver Insurance
grice96 said:
The outcome will be worse doing this if found guilty as you will still be liable to pay court fees of £625 for a plea like this on top of your fine and ban, you also will find yourself at the higher side of the sentencing scale you fall into as you did not plead guilty. Legal aid does not cover these fees.

Almost all mistakes in court procedure the prosecution can ask the magistrate to ammend at your hearing. This solicitor is getting a free ride off a legal aid claim for his time.
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I’m currently unemployed so my legal fees are covered. I’m not, pleading not guilty, I am pleading guilty but he is putting a no plea first. My case is being held in a Justice of peace court which he says changes things a little. He’s calling back tomorrow so I’ll discuss the court fees with him as this wasn’t mentioned due to my extremely low income just now, I don’t start my new job until after the court date.
He knows I want this over with and my ban started and he was the one who said if the no plea is not accepted then guilty is being pushed. I have not to attend court either as they were the ones who sent clarification of this with my summary of arrest, charge and other documents. Don’t know if it’s cause of coronavirus. I was to reply by declaration or get a lawyer to act on my behalf. I have said I will attend though if I am allowed.
 
"My case is being held in a Justice of peace court which he says changes things a little" ...... bit hard to understand that as EVERY drink drive case is held in a magistrates court, it cannot go to Crown Court!!
I think you mean that he is going to submit that there is no case to answer to have the charge dismissed. I think this is most unlikely to happen. As Grice96 says, if there is an error in the charge like the car number or the road involved being wrong, then the prosecution simply apply to have the charge amended. That is basic court fact and your solicitor should understand this.
If it ends up as a guilty plea, then they will adjourn the case to have you attend as they will not disqualify you in your absence.
Even on low income the minimum fine is £125, with £85 prosecution Costs and a £34 victim surcharge (payable by everyone)
 
price1367 said:
"My case is being held in a Justice of peace court which he says changes things a little" ...... bit hard to understand that as EVERY drink drive case is held in a magistrates court, it cannot go to Crown Court!!
I think you mean that he is going to submit that there is no case to answer to have the charge dismissed. I think this is most unlikely to happen. As Grice96 says, if there is an error in the charge like the car number or the road involved being wrong, then the prosecution simply apply to have the charge amended. That is basic court fact and your solicitor should understand this.
If it ends up as a guilty plea, then they will adjourn the case to have you attend as they will not disqualify you in your absence.
Even on low income the minimum fine is £125, with £85 prosecution Costs and a £34 victim surcharge (payable by everyone)
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I have looked into the courts and if I plead guilty by correspondence in the letter they have sent, I do not need to attend court on the 19th. I send my license back with the correspondence with recorded delivery. The letter does state three methods 1.attend personally. 2. Arrange for my lawyer to attend. 3. Write to the procurator fiscal using the reply form. Says if I plead guilty, the court will take into account the stage of the proceedings. The Scottish sheriff court & justice of peace court both state on their websites this is their methods just now due to coronavirus and it was updated at beginning of June. I’ll speak to him tomorrow and then await the 19th of August of the outcome and if I need to attend a date after that but I do not need to attend on the 19th. The outcome will be passed to my lawyer on the 19th and then take it from there. As I said I won’t be driving to work on the 19th as I am banned because I know this is going to be the outcome. I’m not disputing this is a FACT. I will raise what has been appointed to me by yourself and Grace tomorrow. Thanks for your help once again!
 
AHHHHH, this is the first mention that you have made about your case being in Scotland!!!!!!
Rules are different there, which is why you qualified for legal aid (you hardly ever get that luxury for drink drive cases in England)
They are dealing with a lot of cases in the defendants absence there. I can clarify tomorrow about disqualification in your absence in a Scottish court through a contact I have and let you know.
The comments about amending a charge at court still stand though...... but the Scottish angle might bring in corroboration issues as a defence that they have different rules to England for.
 
price1367 said:
AHHHHH, this is the first mention that you have made about your case being in Scotland!!!!!!
Rules are different there, which is why you qualified for legal aid (you hardly ever get that luxury for drink drive cases in England)
They are dealing with a lot of cases in the defendants absence there. I can clarify tomorrow about disqualification in your absence in a Scottish court through a contact I have and let you know.
The comments about amending a charge at court still stand though...... but the Scottish angle might bring in corroboration issues as a defence that they have different rules to England for.
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Aw sorry I thought I mentioned that away back I was in Scotland 🙈 sorry. Yeah there was a few lawyers who didn’t do legal aid and promised me I would get off but I knew exactly what they were after. The money. Thank you that would be really appreciated, I’m going on the basis that I can be disqualified without my presence by what my lawyer said not to drive on the 19th (although I knew not to) and that he will call me with the outcome, and the letters too. I’ll speak to him before then of course too.
 
price1367 said:
Campbell1411, as Grice96 says, solicitors will always start off appearing to be very optimistic….. but as they will not yet have seen any actual evidence they cannot be certain that there is a ‘flaw’ in the prosecution case… or if there is, that it is sufficient to have the case thrown out.
For example sometimes a defendant says to the solicitor: “no I was not given a blood sample to have tested myself”. Now that is a flaw that can result in a not guilty result, but in reality the defendant was offered a blood sample but declined it. That is not a flaw, it only has to be offered, not given.
That can easily be tested yourself free, without a solicitor, by writing to the officer in charge at the police station where you were detained (giving your ID and date / time of detention) requesting a copy of your custody record and the custody video. This has to be supplied on request free and allows you to view the procedure to see if there are any ‘flaws’.
if there are glaring flaws then by all means consider spending £3000 + on expert solicitors, but don’t spend that amount on a “wing and a prayer” that something will be found.
I am very familiar with police procedure and the MDDD/A forms so if you want to, feel free to send me a PM with details about the alleged “flaw” and I will happily give you my thoughts on it.
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The contributions of Price on this forum are priceless ( no pun intended )
 
grice96 said:
The outcome will be worse doing this if found guilty as you will still be liable to pay court fees of £625 for a plea like this on top of your fine and ban, you also will find yourself at the higher side of the sentencing scale you fall into as you did not plead guilty. Legal aid does not cover these fees.

Almost all mistakes in court procedure the prosecution can ask the magistrate to ammend at your hearing. This solicitor is getting a free ride off a legal aid claim for his time.
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Agree with Grice - plus I bet there is the get out of jail caveat ( apology for the pun) it’s used in many public sector wording -“ normally” often hidden in a phrase “ it is normally expected that xxx “
Plus the added “ unprecedented times due to covid”
I think I learnt take it on the chin & learn, then move on with your life
Plus think of press if it’s not guilty plea will it attract more interest
Just thoughts for you to consider - we all grasped at anything to help it go away but honestly getting the court over with it a massive step & relief
 
I’m a SHE and yes I’m in Scotland and the incident happened in Scotland. It is not going to a sherif court it is going to the justice of peace court.
 
I have spoken with a Sherriff I know in Scotland and the picture on court cases for drink driving is rather confusing due to Covid.
Some courts (including Justice of the Peace ones) are allowing cases to go ahead in the absence of the accused (as in your case, Campbell1411) BUT very few are allowing a person to be disqualified without them being there in person. Those that have been doing that are now phasing this out as Covid eases.
He said the likely outcome would be that if a ‘no plea’ application was unsuccessful, and a guilty plea was then put in, the case would be adjourned for your attendance to be disqualified in person.
He thought it more likely that a Justice of the Peace would want attendance for disqualification than a Sherriff.
Sorry I could not get specific advice, it does seem to be a lottery as to how a drink drive case is dealt with in Scotland at the moment.
He did say that ‘no plea’ submissions rarely work, (The time to start court proceedings in Scotland is currently 12 months, not 6 as in England) and the only time he personally has agreed to a disqualification in a persons absence is where it is clear that there is a guilty plea, the solicitor confirmed that his client was aware that he would be banned that day and the person was living on the south coast of England and would have hundreds of miles to travel just to appear in person.
 
Campbell1411 said:
Evening all

I honestly don’t know what to get from this but I have read through some of the forums and I’m just looking for some guidance, support and light.
I was charged yesterday for driving under the influence and my breath test was 42.02. They have said I have to wait on my court date which could be from now to well over a year -2 years due to Covid and the courts being so behind and stacked. I don’t remember them reading me the charges or even it all only parts and this evening is the only time I’ve moved from the same spot since I got released and brought home because I’m still in shock at my stupidity. The officers were brilliant with me, really calming, reassuring and they said they will be putting in the report about how well mannered, cooperative, polite and apologetic & distressed regarding it. They handed my keys back to me late last night and said not to worry and put it at the back or my mind as I can still drive as I have not been convicted and it could be a long time till this happens. I have spoken to a criminal lawyer and he says I will get 12 month ban (9 if do the course, which I will) and a fine, do you get points on your license too? He didn’t specify this? I accept full liability and I will accept the punishment to come for my stupidity but why can’t I stop crying and feel like I’ll never get through this? I’ve never been in trouble with the law, no previous driving incidents not even a parking ticket, I was terrified being in the process room and the whole process of it all and I still am I’m traumatised. I won’t be touching drink ever again, it's ruined my life. I work in childcare as a teaching assistant and I’m terrified I lose my job now because I will have a criminal record (I am sssc & pvg checked, I’m in Scotland). I think I’m just looking for reassurance that there is life after this, you can work in childcare still and my whole career I’ve had for 18 years is not going to taken from me because I made the biggest mistake of my life and I will suffer for the rest of my life. My mental health isn’t the best at times and I’m on medication for it especially anxiety, I want the court to be quick but it’s not looking likely as the officers said. If it’s in a year or over then I could have “done my time” by then but instead I could be having to wait over the ban time to then be convicted later than the actual incident if that makes sense. Does the embarrassment end? Does the tears end? Any advice anyone 😢
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price1367 said:
Yes, he said HE was in. Scotland, he didn’t say the offence was in Scotland and therefore going to a Sheriff’s court.
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if she's in Scotland it's pretty obvious what court it's going to
 
Campbell1411 said:
I’m a SHE and yes I’m in Scotland and the incident happened in Scotland. It is not going to a sherif court it is going to the justice of peace court.
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I think you did confuse things a little by saying that your case would be held in a Justice of the Peace court. In Scotland offences of this nature are always held in a Sheriff Court. Both of mine were.

Anyway, I think the important thing is to remember that we are all in the same boat here and what we are trying to do is give everyone helpful advice and comment.

I would comment however that if you intend to plead guilty with mitigation, there are only a few things that would negate a ban, imminent danger to your life being one of them.

No mitigation will reduce the 12 month statutory minimum, but as mentioned elsewhere, make sure you ask for the Drink Driver Awareness course to reduce the ban to 9 months.
 
djneilsmith98 said:
if she's in Scotland it's pretty obvious what court it's going to
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Why do you just keep posting nitpicking comments that do not help people?
Anyway, if you read her reply to me you will see that she corrected me to point out that it is a NOT a Sherriff’s court she is going to, but a Justice if the Peace court, which is what I have referred to in my last post here, offering helpful advice that people come on here to get.
 
price1367 said:
Why do you just keep posting nitpicking comments that do not help people?
Anyway, if you read her reply to me you will see that she corrected me to point out that it is a NOT a Sherriff’s court she is going to, but a Justice if the Peace court, which is what I have referred to in my last post here, offering helpful advice that people come on here to get.
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I am surprised that she thinks her case will be heard in a Justice of the Peace Court.

This court normally only hears minor offences such as drunk and disorderly or driving through a red light.

You can find more information here especially Q2.

The Scottish Court Process From a Road Traffic Law Perspective - by Richard Freeman - Road Traffic Expert Lawyers & Solicitors

www.roadtrafficexpert.com www.roadtrafficexpert.com
 
Luna2000 said:
I am surprised that she thinks her case will be heard in a Justice of the Peace Court.

This court normally only hears minor offences such as drunk and disorderly or driving through a red light.

You can find more information here especially Q2.

The Scottish Court Process From a Road Traffic Law Perspective - by Richard Freeman - Road Traffic Expert Lawyers & Solicitors

www.roadtrafficexpert.com www.roadtrafficexpert.com
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The Sherriff I spoke to was surprised as well that a drink driving case was at a Justice of the Peace court but he said that a lot of temporary alterations have been made to court procedures during COVID, which are slowly coming to an end. He said there are big variations according to what area of Scotland the case is.
Campbell1411 has been served with the court paperwork and says that it is a JP court her case is at, perhaps we will find out on the 20th August of if this is correct, and what the outcome is.
 
J of the P are lay people who sit with a clerk to advise them on points of law or sentencing, so even if temporary alterations were made, it may be that her case will be heard in the JP court but by a Sheriff (perhaps a temporary one.)

Even Sheriffs can normally only pass custodial sentences of a maximum of 4 years in solemn cases (with a Jury,) and 2 years in summary cases.

If they fell a higher sentence is warranted then they will refer the matter to a High Court sitting.
 
They can issue disqualifications, which is the main thing in this case. I expect they will stick to the same as the Sherriff’s court and generally go for just a 12 month ban for a first offence.
 
Luna2000 said:
I am surprised that she thinks her case will be heard in a Justice of the Peace Court.

This court normally only hears minor offences such as drunk and disorderly or driving through a red light.

You can find more information here especially Q2.

The Scottish Court Process From a Road Traffic Law Perspective - by Richard Freeman - Road Traffic Expert Lawyers & Solicitors

www.roadtrafficexpert.com www.roadtrafficexpert.com
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It is the justice of peace court it has been taken to. The paperwork clearly heads I have to reply or attend the justice of peace court on the 19th of august. I can attach a photo to price this if you like.
 
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