Failing to supply a blood specimen

Convicted Driver Insurance
Hello All,

Just an update and a request please. Went to the hearing on Tuesday (Pleaded NG) and was given a chance to speak. I saw the Duty Solicitor and she agreed that in my case I have very little to lose by pleading NG at the hearing. I was later brought before a District Judge and he confirmed what TypsyNurse had stated and told me that for my case to have any chance I would need expert medical evidence and that it is quite easily available (although obviously I will have to pay). The prosecution outlined their case and it was a bit of a mess, IMO. She, the Prosecutor, stated that they were expecting a Guilty plea! They also agreed to request full evidence from the police and to send it to me. All in all it has given me a little hope as my Brother has offered to help with the expert fees.

Could anyone please advise me of the procedure to obtain a Medical Expert and will I be able to submit my defence and receive a reasonable assessment online? I realise that the costs will greatly increase if the Expert has to attend court.

Many thanks and regards as ever. -- flukey365
 
Here is a link to a site that lists forensic toxicologists.
The norm for toxicology is the “hip flask defence” where the claim is that the suspect consumed alcohol AFTER driving and there is an assessment, based on what the subject CLAIMS to have drunk afterwards, compared with the persons height, weight etc to indicate if the person could have been under the limit at the time they drove. This costs about £300. It is then served on the CPS, who consider if it is then worth proceeding with the case. If they do still intend to proceed, they commission their own toxicology result. If the case is still going to proceed, you and the CPS both get your respective expert to attend court in person to give evidence. This costs around £800 (in total)
If your expert is accepted then you may well win, but you cannot claim the costs back, bar the basic Legal Aid rate for a solicitor, which will not cover commercial rates... plus CPS ask for prosecution costs of £620, plus THEIR expert expenses of £800.
I have no experience of a technical defence where the claim is that a failure to supply was due to medication supplied in hospital. You should go throug the list on the site below and enquire if any of those toxicologists have such experience. Part of their being able to give evidence will depend on them being accepted as an expert in this field. In my first explanation, all the expert had to do was to believe what you told them, perform calculations and indicate what your reading was likely to be at the time of driving. To be honest, this is something I have done before and it is not exactly rocket science but I could not give evidence about the result because I do not have the qualifications to be called an expert in court. In your case, you need a toxicologist who will (hopefully) be able to say that “From medical records I can see that my client had ‘XXml’ of Digoxin. Digoxin has the following effects......... looking at the body cam footage I can see that my client displayed these effects and in MY OPINION, this is consistent with my client being disorientated and IN MY OPINION probably not able to give an informed decision to consent to a sample of blood.”
You need to ask the toxicologist if he would be capable of not only saying that, but be able to say it as an expert witness in court. If he says that will not be possible, save your money.
I see one flaw as being that when you were asked for blood, you indicated that you would supply urine. That indicates a degree of understanding of what was going on. Because of that, I think is is unlikely that CPS would simply accept your toxicology report and discontinue the case, so you could expect it to proceed to a full trial with the cost implications that I listed above.
Sounds complicated? Well that is the simplified version and If you want to go ahead with a technical defence like this, it would be much, much better to engage a specialist solicitor to put this defence forward as it is complex. This would start at £3000, plus VAT and the expert costs that I listed above.
I just want you to have a realistic idea of how this could pan out. You can start by approaching an expert yourself, that expenditure is low, and then make a decision quickly on if you want to risk the bigger outlay, or just accept that you need to minimise your losses and contact CPS to indicate that you are changing your plea at the next hearing to prevent their claim for costs spiralling from £85 to £620.
Here is the link: https://www.jspubs.com/search/index.htm search for drink driving, then failure to give sample. There are 8 listed.
 
Many thanks for such a full and frank assessment. Yes it seems that I must accept it and plead guilty. I see your point regarding my awareness issue, the honest truth is that I do seem to remember certain things in a hazy way but I was completely out of it at other times and I am simply unsure. That is not going to look like a bomb proof defence is it? Rhetorical.

One final point. If I leave it until the next hearing and then plead guilty would I have the full costs imposed on me or would it be better to get it over with now? I rather wanted to examine all of the police evidence before finally deciding but if the metre is now ticking and delaying further would increase the costs it would be better to get it over with.

Many thanks again and kind regards. -- flukey365
 
If the case is adjourned to set a trial date, it is quite open to you to change your plea to the charge on the day.
There is a risk that CPS might ask for slightly higher costs that £85, but it would be nowhere near £620 for a full not guilty.
If you do that, whilst you get the police statements and paperwork (you may well have had them at court the first time) you will be unlikely to be given any bodycam footage as that would only come out in disclosure on a full not guilty plea after you have requested such disclosure.
I hope that you accept that I am not saying that you are being untruthful about your recollections of the events at hospital. I am simply being realistic about what you face when you put forward a technical defence. I have all too often seen people filled with hope from speaking to a general solicitor who encourages you that you have an excellent case, whilst avoiding informing you of where you stand financially. Specialist solicitors are often more realistic with clients, but even then the cost can be shocking in end.
 
Thank you so much, I really appreciate your help and I fully realise that I would have no chance unless throwing money, which I have not got, at it and then likely lose. I will not be driving again anyway so it would be pointless to carry on if the costs go up. I shall wait a couple of weeks to see what they provide, They have supplied some evidence but have indicated that more is to be sent.

I know I am repeating myself but I really am so very grateful. Best wishes. -- flukey365
 
Just an update and another question please. As stated, I went to the hearing on 15 Jan and pleaded not guilty. I was brought before a district judge. He explained that I would need to engage a medical expert to have any chance and that I would be required to foot the bill whatever the outcome, much as advised on here. To be honest he was quite fair. I received scant evidence, most of it is a completely different to my recollections but that is now irrelevant. The court solicitor advised me that if I did not attend the next hearing I would be sentenced in my absence.

I found it most distressing and two ushers were most concerned of my health issues. I now just want to plead guilty and get it over with. My question, could I fill in an income and expenditure form and together with my licence and character references plead guilty by letter?

Many thanks as ever. -- flukey365
 
You cannot plead guilty by letter to failing to supply an evidential sample.
If you do not turn up, the court will probable adjourn the case for you to attend in person to be disqualified, they do not just write to you with the length of your ban! Worst case scenario is that they could issue a warrant for you to be arrested and brought before court... you really should turn up and deal with it on the day.
 
Agree with price. If you don't turn up the court will almost certainly adjourn and require you to attend.

This is because any ban takes effect immediately and so if you don't attend you may, inadvertently, drive whilst banned.

If you really don't want to go then you can send a solicitor along on your behalf, of course at a cost. In that case you shouldn't drive on the day because you will not know when the ban takes effect.

FWIW a guilty plea is a quick process, lasting about ten minutes. You go in and plead guilty. The prosecution briefly outlines the case. You will then be able to present any mitigation or apologies. If you have character references make sure you take five copies, three for the magistrates (it is unusual to get a District Judge), one for the clerk and one for the prosecutor.

They will then retire briefly to decide a sentence before returning to the court room.

I know you may feel they were unsympathetic but it would be unfair on you if they said you had any hope of a defence without an expert report. As I have said, it would be guaranteed to fail and you would then be stuck with £620 costs for twenty minutes in court.

Magistrates and judges are human and understand circumstances such as yours but equally their job is to apply the law consistently. Definitely don't take it personally.
 
Many thanks again. Yes I did think the DJ was fair, he more or less told it to me how it would go and then advised me of the costs. I will attend, as you imply it is far better to be over and done with. I have not been driving anyway and I am resigned to losing my licence on medical conditions whatever. Very grateful for your excellent advice.

Best wishes. -- flukey365
 
Not sure if this is of interest but the incident of the police calling to falsely arrest me at midnight has really taken off. Police initially dismissive of my complaint and showed scant regard. I stepped up the pressure and have now contacted my MP and the Police Commissioner. An inspector has now contacted me and is visiting my home tomorrow. Their whole tone has now changed to one of concern.

Regards. -- flukey365
 
I am not sure what the reference to the ‘false arrest’ is? If it is about your arrest in the case you have been talking about then this does not seem to fit the bill. You were involved in an accident, required to give a breath test, then arrested for failing to supply a sample. The police would not know the extent of your medical problems, but you were taken to hospital when it became apparent that you needed treatment. A false arrest is something like a person of a different colour to you being seen to run away from an accident but they found you nearby and said “well you will do” when it could clearly not have been you. In other words it needs to be intentional.
Unlawful arrest can be the correct circumstances but not applied in a reasonable way. It is difficult to know if the police were unreasonable without knowing all the circumstances, but what will happen is that the inspector will record your complaint, but explain that it will not be investigated until after your court case is concluded.
 
Sorry, it is me not being clear, I did mention this in an earlier post and I should not have brought it up without explaining. It really is nothing to do with the failing to supply issue. Inasmuch that I successfully applied for an adjournment for the hearing, from 2 Jan until 15 Jan. There was a mix up and the court issued an arrest warrant which was an error. The police however decided after two days of sitting on it to call round to my home at midnight to arrest me. Flashing lights and loud banging, they awakened many neighbours. Fortunately I kept the email on my phone and eventually it was resolved. I put a complaint in and was fobbed off, I have now contacted the Police Commissioner and my MP. All hell seems to have now broken out and an Inspector is coming to my home to try and resolve it . The two officers were like the Gestapo, one of them shouting from outside that they were here to arrest me. Sorry to confuse you and it really is irrelevant.
 
I remember what you said about it now..... they did not seem to be diplomatic in any way, arriving at that time and shouting about the arrest for neighbours to hear. In the end, they may well end up with being given advice about how to deal with such a situation in the future, but I think your real gripe should be with the court for issuing a warrant when they shouldn’t have done. The officers will just say “we had a warrant directing us to arrest this person.” (But should have handled it better) they may well not have sat on it for 2 days, it takes a day or 2 to be issued by the court and logged into the police system.
 
Yes, it was the court who made the error and they apologised unreservedly. It is just the action of the police, it was almost barbaric. They knew my age and medical conditions also that I have a spotless record. No attempt to ring or email me, all contact details were known to an Inspector at the small Station. They are trying to rectify matters now but only after I have contacted the Commissioner and my MP.

A different Police Inspector is visiting me at my home tomorrow.

Regards as ever. -- flukey365
 
Sorry to be a pain but just a question regarding procedure, if I may? I wish to plead guilty and I wish to do so before the next hearing, 12 Feb. Can I simply email the court, in the next day or so, stating that I am going to attend but once there I shall plead guilty? Or should I simply turn up? I wish to spend as little time as possible at the Court House. Thanks as ever. -- flukey365
 
flukey365 said:
Sorry to be a pain but just a question regarding procedure, if I may? I wish to plead guilty and I wish to do so before the next hearing, 12 Feb. Can I simply email the court, in the next day or so, stating that I am going to attend but once there I shall plead guilty? Or should I simply turn up? I wish to spend as little time as possible at the Court House. Thanks as ever. -- flukey365
Click to expand...

Just turn up and plead guilty when asked what you plead. Emailing them wont make anything go any quicker, you will still have to wait to be called into the court room on the day of your court case just like everyone else who is appearing before the court on that day.

You may be first to be called into the court room or the last. If your lucky you will be one of the first and be called before the Magistrate in the morning, if you not so lucky it may be the afternoon and a long wait. Good luck.
 
Many thanks. All clear on that. Yes I was waiting six hours the last time so i do not want that again. However it will be finally all over.

Regards as ever -- flukey365
 
Probably irrelevant now but I think you had a very winnable case. The prosecution always have to prove guilt, all the defence have to do is put 'reasonable doubt' into some of the evidence. People have even been acquitted for being too drunk to provide a sample.. ridiculous as that sounds.

You'd be surprised how weak a lot of drink drive/fail to provide cases actually are. It's not uncommon for entire pages of the MGDDB to be left blank.. police officers not turning up to court etc etc.

Unfortunately for you, it costs a lot of money to contest any charge and it can drag on. Alternatively it may be discontinued before the trial.. so then you'd actually get even less costs re-imbursed. What often happens if you'll pay a very hefty sum to get a solid legal team (thousands) and then they'll find glaring errors in procedure and the CPS will just discontinue the case.

Taking into account your circumstances.. I would tend to agree that it may just be better to plead guilty and get it over with. Sometimes the CPS don't really put up much of a fight - as if they just want to get it over with. Then sometimes they'll be stubborn and do everything to make sure it drags on and on - hoping you give in.

I hope it all works out for you anyway. The whole thing sounds very traumatic.
 
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Many thanks Bravo and all other members.

I went on Tuesday and pleaded Guilty, just to bring an end to it and limit the costs. All in all very pleased, the leading magistrate was quite sympathetic. I said that I was Not Guilty but as I could not afford to carry on plus my obvious and visible frailties I was taking the pragmatic option. He fined me £150 + £36, not sure what that was for, and just a 12 month ban. Magistrate said that it was an unusual case and wished me well, I honestly feel that he could not have treated me any better. No Community Service. So I feel relieved it is all over but still a little aggrieved as I had not been drinking. Oh and just £30 per month to pay it!

I was lucky to escape the RTA without serious injury. No one else hurt so it could have been so much worse.

Kind regards and best wishes. -- flukey365
 
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