Disqualification in the UK of non-UK licence and trip to the US

Convicted Driver Insurance

ZZTopWereHere

Well-known member
Hi all,

I've already looked at several threads here and my case covers multiple areas that do not seem to be already covered by any individual thread.

I hold a EU driving licence, I am/was planning a summer holiday in the US, and Saturday night I was taken to the local police station after an initial breath test on the road and the standard two additional tests at the station, with a final reading of 47. Interestingly the police officer suspected of myself because I was driving very slow, so there is no aggravating circumstance like speeding or other driving offenses.

It is the first time in my life that I face this type of charge and my licence is currently clean. It will also be the last time I go through this, but now I'll have to deal with all the consequences of my mistake for at least 9 to 12 months.

The trial will happen soon, and I'm already prepared for the standard/mandatory 12-month driving ban which hopefully will be reduced to 9 if I get offered training. I know that I will also get a fine depending on my disposable income.

I have contacted a very honest solicitor who admitted that, given my low breathalyzer reading, there's not much that can be done to reduce the ban or fine which should already be minimal, so I will go to the court on my own.

However I have a couple of doubts regarding the consequences of my penalty, and I hope that I can get some informal answers here before my trial day:

1) Will I actually get out of the court with my licence, or will they detain it? My understanding is that the ban will apply to the UK and to Ireland due to mutual agreements, while it won't apply elsewhere. However, holders of UK driving licences can't really do much elsewhere as they won't have a driving licence to show to anyone anyway. According to some, but not all, people in this forum, as well as according to other people I know, non-UK licences cannot really be taken away from their holders, but I'd like to know if anyone has the latest information around this detail.

2) If I will leave the court with my licence in my pocket, I understand that I could still use it in continental Europe and also in the US, where my driving licence has always been accepted with no need for an additional international driving licence. However, I've read some threads here mentioning potential issues with car rental companies. Would it be the case also with my non-UK licence? I've understood here that rental companies might be quite relaxed when asking their sales people, but the fine print might be challenging for insurance purposes.

Thanks and best regards,
Z
 

price1367

TTC Group
Wen you appear in court the procedure should be that your EU licence will be kept and then forwarded to DVLA who retain it until you ban is finished. For some courts though, the sight of a foreign licence confuses them and they just hand it back.
If it is sent to DVLA, all you have to do is contact them in advance of your trip and say you require it for use abroad and they will send it to you to use and then return to them until the end of your ban.
DVLA will have your disqualification on record because they will create a "dummy" UK licence for you on their records with the DR10 conviction code, so that in the event that you do apply to change your EU licence for a UK one, the DR10 will appear on your licence record.
You are correct that a ban in England is not a ban in most other countries, including America, so as the holder of a licence for your own country you can drive legally abroad, including your own country.
Whateve the policies of the main hire companies say about not renting to people with a drink drive conviction, it seems to be widespread abroad that they do not ask about ANY convictions, just check that you have a full current licence from a country where they recognise the validity of that licence.
The question of insurance has been raised to cover people thinking there is no problem with hiring a car abroad. There would be a problem if a false declaration is made (where a motorist is asked if they have convictions and they lie) but I am not aware of hire companies that do actually ask. Hire companies say in some terms and conditions that they will not hire to someone with a DR10 or who have more than 6 points. You have to agree to the terms and conditions when you hire a car, so it could be argued that you were aware that you should not be hiring a car from them. (I know we don't read them, but not bothering to check is not a get out)
This would only become an issue if you had a major accident and enquiries were made about your driving status, but it should be mentioned so that people understand there could be a potential risk in hiring a car within 5 years of a DR10.
 

Mclanelli

Well-known member
Your best bet is to retain your actual licence after the court date/ban.

The DVLA don't like the fact that people can be banned in the UK, and then drive legally in Europe. People can only do this if they retain the actual physical licence after their disqualification.

There is no longer any need for a physical licence in the UK, in terms of checking an individuals eligibility to drive; so why do they still demand that you hand it over? Because they don't want you to use it in Europe, even though you would not be committing an offence.

Some insurance policies in Europe will ask if the licence is current and valid. If you are banned then technically it is not. However many policies simply ask for a copy of your UK licence; there is no other wording or sub text. In this case you are legal to drive.

The DVLA know this; but they don't want you to know this until its too late. By too late I mean once you have handed over the plastic card in court.

Now if you were to misplace your licence before court, leave it in another country, or simply forget to bring it with you on your court date due to nerves etc, then you simply tell the magistrates this when and if they ask for it; and that will be that. There is no consequence to not physically having your licence present after sentencing. Some people even send it off to the DVLA before court; and they explain this to the magistrates; and that's that. The DVLA do seem to lose or misplace a lot of these sent licences as many never turn up.

Give yourself the option.

M
 
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price1367

TTC Group
This advice is simply wrong.
Whilst it is correct to say that ban in the UK does only apply here, and to countries with reciprocal arrangements (Northern Ireland, Ireland and the Isle of Man), it is false and missleading to state that you can drive abroad if you keep hold of the physical licence.
In the case of this poster, I have pointed out that he can drive abroad, because he holds a foreign licence, but for everyone else with a UK licence, caught here, they do not possess a valid licence to drive here, so cannot rely on a "disqualified" licence to drive abroad. This is clearly set out in the EU guidelines, shown below.
Whilst there is a valid debate about hiring a car abroad after a drink drive ban has finished, there is no debate about retaining a driving licence after disqualification to pretend you are entitled to drive abroad.
the offence would not be "driving whilst disqualified" because you are not, in the rest of Europe, but you would be guilty of driving without a licence, with the risk of driving with no insurance and possibly making a false declaration to hire the car.

"DVLA don't like the fact that people can be banned in the UK, and then drive legally in Europe.".... because if they have a UK licence, they can't !!
EU driving licences

If your driving licence is issued by an EU country, it's recognised throughout the EU and you can use it as long as:

  • it is valid
  • you are old enough to drive a vehicle of the equivalent category
  • it is not suspended or restricted and has not been revoked in the issuing country.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...ing-licence-recognition-validity/index_en.htm
 
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Mclanelli

Well-known member
This advice is simply wrong.
Whilst it is correct to say that ban in the UK does only apply here, and to countries with reciprocal arrangements (Northern Ireland, Ireland and the Isle of Man), it is false and missleading to state that you can drive abroad if you keep hold of the physical licence.
In the case of this poster, I have pointed out that he can drive abroad, because he holds a foreign licence, but for everyone else with a UK licence, caught here, they do not possess a valid licence to drive here, so cannot rely on a "disqualified" licence to drive abroad. This is clearly set out in the EU guidelines, shown below.
Whilst there is a valid debate about hiring a car abroad after a drink drive ban has finished, there is no debate about retaining a driving licence after disqualification to pretend you are entitled to drive abroad.
the offence would not be "driving whilst disqualified" because you are not, in the rest of Europe, but you would be guilty of driving without a licence, with the risk of driving with no insurance and possibly making a false declaration to hire the car.

"DVLA don't like the fact that people can be banned in the UK, and then drive legally in Europe.".... because if they have a UK licence, they can't !!
EU driving licences

If your driving licence is issued by an EU country, it's recognised throughout the EU and you can use it as long as:

  • it is valid
  • you are old enough to drive a vehicle of the equivalent category
  • it is not suspended or restricted and has not been revoked in the issuing country.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...ing-licence-recognition-validity/index_en.htm

I wasn't giving him advice. I was pointing out some facts and options. At no point do I even use the word "advice"

My points are valid. Some policies in Europe will only require a copy of your UK licence; nothing more. By Europe I mean the continent Price, not the Isle of Man or Northern Ireland.

I have never mentioned car hire companies. I was referring to policies to insure a vehicle that an individual owns in a European country. (Isle of Man & Northern Island not included)

An individual would not be pretending as you describe it. Go to Greece, go to Kos or Rhodes, or any of the Islands and buy a vehicle, then go to an insurance company's office, and take out a policy. The policy is on the vehicle, not the individual, as is the case anywhere in Greece. All they require is a copy of your UK licence and payment. Then anyone can drive that vehicle. Anyone. There is no declaration that your licence has not been revoked in the country of issue. They take a photocopy and that is all. I know this because I have a vehicle and residence in Kos. I know people who have been banned in the UK, but have had insurance on a vehicle and driven in Kos, Rhodes and Kalymnos.

Some of the insurance companies in several European countries don't even have websites. In Greece its like going back thirty years; and the Islands do whatever they want. Athens might be different; but not much in most cases. These are just some examples.


"In the case of this poster, I have pointed out that he can drive abroad" Great; I wasn't challenging anything that YOU said Price. I responded to the thread, with my own points.

The DVLA are aware of all of this, and they know that if they retain the hard copy of your licence then you are snookered. But if you keep hold of it and then go to Europe it is open season in many countries.

So give yourself the option folks. Don't let the DVLA subject you to more misery than you need to.

M
 
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hewl

Well-known member
I wasn't giving him advice. I was pointing out some facts and options. At no point do I even use the word "advice" Don't put words into my mouth.

My points are valid. Some policies in Europe will only require a copy of your UK licence; nothing more. By Europe I mean the continent Price, not the Isle of Man or Northern Ireland.

I have never mentioned car hire companies. I was referring to policies to insure a vehicle that an individual owns in a European country. (Isle of Man & Northern Island not included)

An individual would not be pretending as you describe it. Go to Greece, go to Kos or Rhodes, or any of the Islands and buy a vehicle, then go to an insurance company's office, and take out a policy. The policy is on the vehicle, not the individual, as is the case anywhere in Greece. All they require is a copy of your UK licence and payment. Then anyone can drive that vehicle. Anyone. There is no declaration that your licence has not been revoked in the country of issue. They take a photocopy and that is all. I know this because I have a vehicle and residence in Kos. I know people who have been banned in the UK, but have had insurance on a vehicle and driven in Kos, Rhodes and Kalymnos.

Some of the insurance companies in several European countries don't even have websites. In Greece its like going back thirty years; and the Islands do whatever they want. Athens might be different; but not much in most cases. These are just some examples.


"In the case of this poster, I have pointed out that he can drive abroad" Great; I wasn't challenging anything that YOU said Price. I responded to the thread, with my own points.

The DVLA are aware of all of this, and they know that if they retain the hard copy of your licence then you are snookered. But if you keep hold of it and then go to Europe it is open season in many countries.

So give yourself the option folks. Don't let the DVLA subject you to more misery than you need to.

M

So you are advocating the use of a licence in the EU under the false presumption that it is valid? Or are you implying its ok because no one will find out?

I wasn't giving him advice. I was pointing out some facts and options.

Thank F for that!!! You are telling people it is ok to lie or not inform car hirers etc of the true status of someones licence just because they are unlikely to check. This would be terrible advice!! You didnt point out any facts either! The only options you gave were false representation so hardly options.

Did you not read the link provided by price?

Were you simply unaware of the conditions of an EU licence?? Clearly you are not as you have gone from its ok to drive whilst disqualified in the whole of Europe to just in Greece. But Greece IS in the EU so it's NOT ok to do what you suggested in Greece even if Tom, Dick and Harry get away with it. Please read the link provided by price and stop encouraging people to break the law (as you do in many posts)
 

price1367

TTC Group
So you are advocating the use of a licence in the EU under the false presumption that it is valid? Or are you implying its ok because no one will find out?



Thank F for that!!! You are telling people it is ok to lie or not inform car hirers etc of the true status of someones licence just because they are unlikely to check. This would be terrible advice!! You didnt point out any facts either! The only options you gave were false representation so hardly options.

Did you not read the link provided by price?

Were you simply unaware of the conditions of an EU licence?? Clearly you are not as you have gone from its ok to drive whilst disqualified in the whole of Europe to just in Greece. But Greece IS in the EU so it's NOT ok to do what you suggested in Greece even if Tom, Dick and Harry get away with it. Please read the link provided by price and stop encouraging people to break the law (as you do in many posts)

HEwl,
I was just starting to reply and I saw that you had put it better than I could...!
You might get away with using red diesel, bald tyres or not wearing seat belts, but that does not mean it is legal to do so. It is a fact that many people do these things, but my opinion that these things are illegal, and you can be prosecuted for doing them. That is my interpretation between fact and opinion. It is dangerous to mix the two up.
 

Mclanelli

Well-known member
So you are advocating the use of a licence in the EU under the false presumption that it is valid? Or are you implying its ok because no one will find out?



Thank F for that!!! You are telling people it is ok to lie or not inform car hirers etc of the true status of someones licence just because they are unlikely to check. This would be terrible advice!! You didnt point out any facts either! The only options you gave were false representation so hardly options.

Did you not read the link provided by price?

Were you simply unaware of the conditions of an EU licence?? Clearly you are not as you have gone from its ok to drive whilst disqualified in the whole of Europe to just in Greece. But Greece IS in the EU so it's NOT ok to do what you suggested in Greece even if Tom, Dick and Harry get away with it. Please read the link provided by price and stop encouraging people to break the law (as you do in many posts)


Ah Hewl,

As Prices's number one fanboy I knew it wouldn't be long before we were subjected to your usual ramblings. So eloquent as always.

Thanks for pointing out that Greece is now an EU country Hewl; I had missed that. It explains why nobody will accept my Drachma anymore. That's been puzzling me for years. Thanks for clearing that up.

You know, I am just pointing out the way in which things work in some countries. I'm not telling anyone what to do or advising them on anything. I can see how that is going to be lost on you as you disagree with anything that you have no knowledge of; unless it comes from Price of course.

People are free to make up their own minds. I am just highlighting the terrain in which they could find themselves later on down the line.


In terms of me encouraging people to break the law in previous posts; please by all means post the links to those comments on this feed. I think we know that your comments regarding this are nonsense Hewl; and yet you are a law abiding citizen right? With no criminal convictions? Yeah, you didn't think that one through really did you.

One for the road eh Hewl?

M
 
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price1367

TTC Group
Ah Hewl,

As Prices's number one fanboy I knew it wouldn't be long before we were subjected to your usual ramblings. So eloquent as always.

Thanks for pointing out that Greece is now an EU country Hewl; I had missed that. It explains why nobody will accept my Drachma anymore. That's been puzzling me for years. Thanks for clearing that up.

You know, I am just pointing out the way in which things work in some countries. I'm not telling anyone what to do or advising them on anything. I can see how that is going to be lost on you as you disagree with anything that you have no knowledge of; unless it comes from Price of course.

People are free to make up their own minds. I am just highlighting the terrain in which they could find themselves later on down the line.


In terms of me encouraging people to break the law in previous posts; please by all means post the links to those comments on this feed. I think we know that your comments regarding this are nonsense Hewl; and yet you are a law abiding citizen right? With no criminal convictions? Yeah, you didn't think that one through really did you.

One for the road eh Hewl?

M

the below 3 quotes from your post show that you are doing worse that encouraging people to break the law, you are telling them that actions are actually legal, when they are a 'fiddle' . If people follow your advice they will be breaking the law in another country and not realise. "They can drive legally in Europe" if they just keep hold of their physical licence when banned. That was stated as a 'fact', "insurance companies ask if the licence is current and valid....... In this case you are legal to drive." Another 'fact that ignores the legal requirement to hold a current, not suspended licence to drive in your home country to drive abroad.
if you only prefaced your posts like this with "IN MY OPINION" then readers would know to take the 'facts' with a pinch of salt.

As to the dig at Hewl, he has replied to a post previously that he has NOT been convicted of drink driving .... But there again that WAS clearly an opinion, not based on any fact that I am aware of: "No, I havent been in this situation as I dont drink and drive......"

Quotes from your post earlier:

The DVLA don't like the fact that people can be banned in the UK, and then drive legally in Europe. People can only do this if they retain the actual physical licence after their disqualification.

Because they don't want you to use it in Europe, even though you would not be committing an offence.

Some insurance policies in Europe will ask if the licence is current and valid. If you are banned then technically it is not. However many policies simply ask for a copy of your UK licence; there is no other wording or sub text. In this case you are legal to drive.
 

ZZTopWereHere

Well-known member
Hi all,

Thanks a lot for your feedback.

I know that my post was quite wordy and indeed McIannelli seemed to miss that my licence is not a UK one, but please do not argue against each other, when I am misunderstood I believe I should first look back at how I have communicated first and I must recognise that my case is a bit unusual otherwise I would have just reused one of the many helpful threads here. My whole description was a bit long-winded rather than being expressed with simple bullet items, so I'm not complaining about any reply but I would like to keep this thread focused on the main topic to better help other people here.

The peculiar case I am sharing is one related to a non-UK licence holder, who is a UK resident (both according to UK regulations and according to my home country regulations) and who has plans to travel to the US. I do understand that my post might be confusing so I have no issue with McIannelli's reply.

For the benefit of holders of a UK licence, like it would be my case when I'll have to renew my license in 2020 if I will still be living here, I do understand that a DVLA ban would invalidate a UK licence and any right attached to it regardless of whether I get out of any court with my plastic card in my pocket. That rectangular plastic object would carry no legal value anywhere, because the ultimate "owner" of my licence, the DVLA, has full authority on its validity.

However I do not have a UK licence, therefore no authority beyond the country that provided me with my driving licence would have any right to establish the validity of my driving licence unless there is a mutual agreement in place, which is not my case. Clearly, and undeniably rightly so, the UK authorities can decide who is allowed to drive within their own borders regardless of any foreign authority. Therefore, I will not be able to drive in the UK (and in all countries with mutual agreements) from the day I will get out of the local court after my hearing, for at least 9 months depending on the court decision.

I will see if the court will opt to take my driving licence, and I understand from Price's post that I would be allowed to get it back temporarily if I formally ask the DVLA and I might have to send it back after using it abroad. It is a bit weird, considering my paragraph above this one, but I wouldn't either complain if that were the decision taken by the court. Being at fault to start with, I will just accept the ruling and then I will take whichever next step will be more appropriate going forward.

With regards to the hiring company, I have checked all the "small print" available online, although I understand that there might be smaller print in documents handed over when collecting the car, and I've seen no mention of points or other penalties related to the driving licence. It must be valid, which would be true in my case while it wouldn't be true if I had a UK driving licence, but other than that I haven't spotted any other clause.

My main concern, at this stage, is actually related to the US visa, a subject I haven't mentioned so far. Due to recent regulations regarding countries visited in the last 5 years, I won't be able to apply for my usual ESTA and I will have to apply for a full visa. According to other posts, this will imply answering "yes" to a generic question related to arrests and criminal records, and after checking that checkbox the road is necessarily uphill (the ESTA form includes a more specific question about crimes which do not include DUI or drink-driving). I know that I might either be denied a visa, which I believe it's unlikely given my multiple past entries in the US (more than 10 in the past 15 years), or that it might take too long to get it on time, which I believe to be more likely than a plain denial.

Thanks again for all your feedback and any further opinion is more than welcome.

I will report the outcome of my personal experience, although to be honest all this is quite daunting and I might just cancel my planned US holidays even before going through the whole visa process. We will see where I am after my court hearing, but I will report my experience regardless of how far I get through all this.

Thanks and best regards,
Z
 

price1367

TTC Group
My first advice to you was good for your circumstances, but you are right, we then got sidetracked on to other matters that are not of help in your case, I am sorry for that.
Anyway, you seem to have got a good grasp of what the situation is. It is a shame that you cannot go down the ESTA route, that us much simpler. You have seen that the questions for a visa are more specific, and you should declare the drink drive conviction during at. This may well mean that US immigration will require you to have a medical before they decide.
A straihtforward visa application takes about 3 weeks to process, but if you were required to have a medical this could lengthen the process a lot.
In your favour is that you have previously made multiple visits to the USA, so are a "known quantity" to them. Against you is not just your drink drive conviction, but that you are currently disqualified here. That is more likely to trigger a medical than where you have a drink drive conviction but are no longer disqualified.
Unfortunately you cannot ring the US embassy for advice, as their only advice it to apply, have an interview and they will consider the circumstances.
 

Mclanelli

Well-known member
the below 3 quotes from your post show that you are doing worse that encouraging people to break the law, you are telling them that actions are actually legal, when they are a 'fiddle' . If people follow your advice they will be breaking the law in another country and not realise. "They can drive legally in Europe" if they just keep hold of their physical licence when banned. That was stated as a 'fact', "insurance companies ask if the licence is current and valid....... In this case you are legal to drive." Another 'fact that ignores the legal requirement to hold a current, not suspended licence to drive in your home country to drive abroad.
if you only prefaced your posts like this with "IN MY OPINION" then readers would know to take the 'facts' with a pinch of salt.

As to the dig at Hewl, he has replied to a post previously that he has NOT been convicted of drink driving .... But there again that WAS clearly an opinion, not based on any fact that I am aware of: "No, I havent been in this situation as I dont drink and drive......"

Quotes from your post earlier:

The DVLA don't like the fact that people can be banned in the UK, and then drive legally in Europe. People can only do this if they retain the actual physical licence after their disqualification.

Because they don't want you to use it in Europe, even though you would not be committing an offence.

Some insurance policies in Europe will ask if the licence is current and valid. If you are banned then technically it is not. However many policies simply ask for a copy of your UK licence; there is no other wording or sub text. In this case you are legal to drive.
Price,

"Fiddle" is the best legal term that you could come up with? Considering your background; the use of that term in itself leaves you with little credibility on that particular point and subject.

The following is a misquote from you on my comment: "insurance companies ask if the licence is current and valid....... In this case you are legal to drive."

You are implying that I made that statement when in fact I stated the following:

"Some insurance policies in Europe will ask if the licence is current and valid. If you are banned then technically it is not"

So I am stating that if you are banned in the UK, then your licence wont be considered to be current and valid for use in a European country under that policy due to this wording and question; as you are making a declaration. However if this question is not presented verbally or in a written declaration form, then the following applies as per my original statement:

"However many policies simply ask for a copy of your UK licence; there is no other wording or sub text. In this case you are legal to drive"

So what I said in summary, which was the fourth paragraph on my original post was:

"Some insurance policies in Europe will ask if the licence is current and valid. If you are banned then technically it is not. However many policies simply ask for a copy of your UK licence; there is no other wording or sub text. In this case you are legal to drive"

I did not say, as you claimed:

"insurance companies ask if the licence is current and valid....... In this case you are legal to drive."

So there is a large hole in your account of what I actually said.

My point was valid. In Greece it is possible to insure a vehicle with only your passport. In many cases you aren't even asked for a copy of a licence. However you need to be a resident for this to apply.

So if you are asked a series of questions regarding an insurance policy by the insurer; and you answer all of those questions honestly and do not make one false claim, and at no point are you asked about your driving status in the UK, and as result of your honest answers you are then given a valid insurance policy, then you would by definition be legal to drive in that country; and for the benefit of this post I am referring to Greece.

So in the above mentioned context Price; under which part of any law would you be committing an offence? Be it Greek or EU European. Remember, honest declaration based on the questions ASKED, valid policy, payment made, legal to drive and covered if stopped by the police and insured if involved in a collision, passport or licence or both photocopied.

Be clear in your answer Price. We have already disregarded "fiddle" as a valid legal term; so if you could come up with something for the above mentioned scenario then I would be genuinely interested to hear it.

As I have mentioned before; at no point have I, or am I, advising people on what to do. I am simply engaging in a discussion and stating some facts. If I told you that McDonalds sold Fries, Burgers and Shakes, and that eaten in quantity those could be bad for your health; it wouldn't mean that I am advising you to eat, or not to eat, said refreshments at said establishment. I would simply be making a point. Just to be clear.

M
 
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price1367

TTC Group
Price,

"Fiddle" is the best legal term that you could come up with? Considering your background; the use of that term in itself leaves you with little credibility on that particular point and subject.

The following is a misquote from you on my comment: "insurance companies ask if the licence is current and valid....... In this case you are legal to drive."

You are implying that I made that statement when in fact I stated the following:

"Some insurance policies in Europe will ask if the licence is current and valid. If you are banned then technically it is not"

So I am stating that if you are banned in the UK, then your licence wont be considered to be current and valid for use in a European country under that policy due to this wording and question; as you are making a declaration. However if this question is not presented verbally or in a written declaration form, then the following applies as per my original statement:

"However many policies simply ask for a copy of your UK licence; there is no other wording or sub text. In this case you are legal to drive"

So what I said in summary, which was the fourth paragraph on my original post was:

"Some insurance policies in Europe will ask if the licence is current and valid. If you are banned then technically it is not. However many policies simply ask for a copy of your UK licence; there is no other wording or sub text. In this case you are legal to drive"

I did not say, as you claimed:

"insurance companies ask if the licence is current and valid....... In this case you are legal to drive."

So there is a large hole in your account of what I actually said.

My point was valid. In Greece it is possible to insure a vehicle with only your passport. In many cases you aren't even asked for a copy of a licence. However you need to be a resident for this to apply.

So if you are asked a series of questions regarding an insurance policy by the insurer; and you answer all of those questions honestly and do not make one false claim, and at no point are you asked about your driving status in the UK, and as result of your honest answers you are then given a valid insurance policy, then you would by definition be legal to drive in that country; and for the benefit of this post I am referring to Greece.

So in the above mentioned context Price; under which part of any law would you be committing an offence? Be it Greek or EU European. Remember, honest declaration based on the questions ASKED, valid policy, payment made, legal to drive and covered if stopped by the police and insured if involved in a collision, passport or licence or both photocopied.

Be clear in your answer Price. We have already disregarded "fiddle" as a valid legal term; so if you could come up with something for the above mentioned scenario then I would be genuinely interested to hear it.

As I have mentioned before; at no point have I, or am I, advising people on what to do. I am simply engaging in a discussion and stating some facts. If I told you that McDonalds sold Fries, Burgers and Shakes, and that eaten in quantity those could be bad for your health; it wouldn't mean that I am advising you to eat, or not to eat, said refreshments at said establishment. I would simply be making a point. Just to be clear.

M


I have eave replied to the Original posters last question, in an effort to help him with his query because that is why he came here.

i will, however, answer the last post to clarify the points raised. Can we then draw a line under this, or debate people's opinions in another thread as the original poster has said it is not h elping him. I will challenge any further claims that you can drive in Europe without a valid licence because that is simply wrong, but I'll report the thread to the moderator rather than waste my time proving it wrong again.

The Correct word was used, see 2 below:

fiddle

ˈfɪd(ə)l/
noun

  • 1.
    [COLOR=#878787 !important]informal[/COLOR]
    a violin.
    synonyms:violin, viola, cello, double bass; historicalkit
    "their feet moved in time with the fiddle"






  • 2.
    BRITISH[COLOR=#878787 !important]informal[/COLOR]
    an act of defrauding, cheating, or falsifying.
    [COLOR=#878787 !important]"a major mortgage fiddle"[/COLOR]
    synonyms:fraud, swindle, fix, wangle, confidence trick, ruse, wile, piece of deception, bit of sharp practice; More






I fail to see how anyone can think that it is legal to drive because they have insurance in Greece, but do not possess a valid driving licence. You are still saying that if it is OK with insurance, then "you are legal to drive", this is false.

I posted a link earlier to show that to drive in Europe you make to be the holder of a valid licence to drive in your home country that is not suspended. that does not mean that you have kept your licence after you have been disqualified because when you produce the licence to a police officer that is dishonest, also known as a "fiddle".

Here is the link again, clearly showing that you have to hold a valid not suspended driving licence in your home country to drive in a member state, so the offence would be driving without a driving licence in Greece. I do not understand Greek, but if someone does, I am sure they would be able to quote the relevant law covering driving licences, this is from EU legislation that all members subscribe to in this respect.

[h=3]EU driving licences[/h]If your driving licence is issued by an EU country, it's recognised throughout the EU and you can use it as long as:

  • it is valid
  • you are old enough to drive a vehicle of the equivalent category
  • it is not suspended or restricted and has not been revoked in the issuing country.


http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...ing-licence-recognition-validity/index_en.htm
 

Mclanelli

Well-known member
I have eave replied to the Original posters last question, in an effort to help him with his query because that is why he came here.

i will, however, answer the last post to clarify the points raised. Can we then draw a line under this, or debate people's opinions in another thread as the original poster has said it is not h elping him. I will challenge any further claims that you can drive in Europe without a valid licence because that is simply wrong, but I'll report the thread to the moderator rather than waste my time proving it wrong again.

The Correct word was used, see 2 below:

fiddle

ˈfɪd(ə)l/
noun

  • 1.
    [COLOR=#878787 !important]informal[/COLOR]
    a violin.
    synonyms:
    violin, viola, cello, double bass; historicalkit
    "their feet moved in time with the fiddle"





  • 2.
    BRITISH[COLOR=#878787 !important]informal[/COLOR]
    an act of defrauding, cheating, or falsifying.
    [COLOR=#878787 !important]"a major mortgage fiddle"[/COLOR]
    synonyms:
    fraud, swindle, fix, wangle, confidence trick, ruse, wile, piece of deception, bit of sharp practice; More






I fail to see how anyone can think that it is legal to drive because they have insurance in Greece, but do not possess a valid driving licence. You are still saying that if it is OK with insurance, then "you are legal to drive", this is false.

I posted a link earlier to show that to drive in Europe you make to be the holder of a valid licence to drive in your home country that is not suspended. that does not mean that you have kept your licence after you have been disqualified because when you produce the licence to a police officer that is dishonest, also known as a "fiddle".

Here is the link again, clearly showing that you have to hold a valid not suspended driving licence in your home country to drive in a member state, so the offence would be driving without a driving licence in Greece. I do not understand Greek, but if someone does, I am sure they would be able to quote the relevant law covering driving licences, this is from EU legislation that all members subscribe to in this respect.

EU driving licences

If your driving licence is issued by an EU country, it's recognised throughout the EU and you can use it as long as:

  • it is valid
  • you are old enough to drive a vehicle of the equivalent category
  • it is not suspended or restricted and has not been revoked in the issuing country.


http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...ing-licence-recognition-validity/index_en.htm


Well thanks for this Price, I am overwhelmed by this update.

You have managed to establish that the word "fiddle" is included in the English dictionary, via a Wikipedia search. As too are the words "poppycock" and "claptrap"

However you have failed to provide any legal explanation to the scenario that I have described, or explain how it would be an offence in that country where a UK licence was not present; which is a shame.

I think you will find there are many expats who have been living in Greece for over ten years with expired UK licences that have continued to drive legally under Greek law and continued to legally renew insurance policies. in fact anyone can obtain a Greek driving license after a 90 day stay in country; with a utility bill to prove residency and a passport.

As for informing the "moderators" well I find that comment petulant and rather childish.

This is a forum for reaction and debate. Your auto signature doesn't intimidate me Price as it might do others; and my points are fair and valid. I have as much right to speak as you do.

Consider this a line drawn.

M
 
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price1367

TTC Group
"However you have failed to provide any legal explanation to the scenario that I have described, or explain how it would be an offence in that country where a UK licence was not present; which is a shame. "


You have not read the link that I provided, which shows it is an offence to drive in a member state with an expired home licence. You just continue to say that you know people who do this. That does not make it legal.
People come here for facts, and whilst I agree some laws are open to interpretation your opinion flies in the facts that apply here with no interpretation, you HAVE to be the holder of a valid, not suspended, driving licence in your home country to legally drive abroad.

Fiddle has the same definition in the Cambridge and other reputable dictionaries, not Wikipedia

i have reported your post, not because I am petulant, but because I don't know of any other way of stopping you telling lies about the law and misleading readers.
 
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ZZTopWereHere

Well-known member
Thanks again for the additional feedback Price, I do appreciate that your feedback was spot on. I focused on McIannelli because he seems quite sensitive to criticism and I do believe that my initial post, regardless of its appropriate title, could lead to misinterpretations.

I might go ahead with the US visa as there isn't much more to lose beyond all money already spent on tickets and bookings. Indeed the medical is the key variable in terms of risk, but also the interview to be honest...

I truly want to play by the book and I'm personally not that good at cheating even if I wanted to, and if I picture myself in the following conversation...

"Q: so you've been arrested for DUI and banned for about a year in the UK, right?
A: Yes...
Q: And how do you plan to travel in the US?
A: Well, you see, my EU driving licence is still good in the US
Q: And do you believe US citizens would feel safe if we allowed aliens banned for driving elsewhere to drive along our highways?
A:....."

...you can imagine that's pretty embarrassing to say the least.

I do know that exactly because of what has just occurred to me, I won't do that anymore while otherwise I wouldn't have been that worried (and in California the shock might even be worse as you should be jailed for at least 96 hours after the arrest). But that's the annoying paradox of these cases. Right now, when I am utterly clean due to even the shock alone of my experience, I will have to carry a stain on my reputation for at least 5 years and up to 11 depending on what you look at (insurance, background checks, and maybe other areas I haven't yet taken into account).

Again, this would really be my first ever visa interview so I don't have a clue as to how deep they might dig into my current troubles, but my confidence on being able to swim in the Pacific this summer is definitely below 50%.

Thanks again and best regards,
Z
 

hewl

Well-known member
Thanks again for the additional feedback Price, I do appreciate that your feedback was spot on. I focused on McIannelli because he seems quite sensitive to criticism

Agreed! She does seem very sensitive to criticism so probably best for me not to reply and upset her anymore.

The fact remains that giving incorrect information is not only unhelpful but could potentially get people into trouble so very irresponsible to do so.

Im glad you have listened to price who has given you the correct information.
 

price1367

TTC Group
US Immigration will want to see a copy of your criminal record with the visa application and discuss it with you at your interview.
Because you are from the EU (sorry to say that, but you didn't say which country in the EU) they will also want to see a copy of your record from your home country, or confirmation that you have a clear record there.
i once helped someone with a US visa application and they sent in a document from the Police saying "nothing Relevant." US immigration rejected this, saying "we will decide what is relevant or not" and insisted on a full print out being obtained. this can be obtained under a aplication for a 'Subject Access Request'. The "nothing relevant" was because the convictions were for assault in 1967 and 1972 and therefore spent for normal purposes.(in this country) The "Subject access request" is asking 'tell me everything you have recorded against me, even if it is
spent' and this showed the 2 assaults. He was interviewed about the circumstances of each offence at the US Embassy in Grosvenor Square even though they were 40-45 years ago.
Is there any way that you could (truthfully obviously) say that you did not intend to drive whilst in the USA? Anyone going with you who could drive or a relative who would pick you up? It may be that plans fall through and subsequently you have to hire a car, but the important thing is to be honest at the time of the visa application interview.
You will either be granted admission or you will not. They cannot impose conditions on what you do to travel around once you are in the USA.
 

Mclanelli

Well-known member
"However you have failed to provide any legal explanation to the scenario that I have described, or explain how it would be an offence in that country where a UK licence was not present; which is a shame. "


You have not read the link that I provided, which shows it is an offence to drive in a member state with an expired home licence. You just continue to say that you know people who do this. That does not make it legal.
People come here for facts, and whilst I agree some laws are open to interpretation your opinion flies in the facts that apply here with no interpretation, you HAVE to be the holder of a valid, not suspended, driving licence in your home country to legally drive abroad.

Fiddle has the same definition in the Cambridge and other reputable dictionaries, not Wikipedia

i have reported your post, not because I am petulant, but because I don't know of any other way of stopping you telling lies about the law and misleading readers.

People don't come here for facts they come here for discussion and debate and opinions. If they want facts they go see a lawyer; which you aren't.

There was you wanting to draw a line under this which I did; and then here you are rabbiting on about where "fiddle" sits in the Cambridge dictionary.

You really don't like being challenged on anything do you?

M
 
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ZZTopWereHere

Well-known member
US Immigration will want to see a copy of your criminal record with the visa application and discuss it with you at your interview.
Because you are from the EU (sorry to say that, but you didn't say which country in the EU) they will also want to see a copy of your record from your home country, or confirmation that you have a clear record there.

(...)

Is there any way that you could (truthfully obviously) say that you did not intend to drive whilst in the USA? Anyone going with you who could drive or a relative who would pick you up? It may be that plans fall through and subsequently you have to hire a car, but the important thing is to be honest at the time of the visa application interview.
You will either be granted admission or you will not. They cannot impose conditions on what you do to travel around once you are in the USA.

Thanks again Price, I have now completed my DS-160 application and I've looked into the whole ACRO thing... It really feels like an obstacle race. For someone who could always tick on the "No" checkboxes and never applied for anything more complex than an ESTA (or the pretty much similar Aussie visa), this is quite off-putting to be honest.

However, the embassy website mentions only the ACRO, especially in my case where the arrest is truly just the one occurred here in the UK. You seem to be mentioning cases of people who were arrested, no matter why, decades ago in their home country but luckily that's not my case. Again, I know they could ask anything from me, but my previous multiple entries to the US with no issues should hopefully help out.

Regarding driving... unfortunately I have no alternative. I have already prepaid a car and the whole trip is designed around using a car, which is anyway the case in the US unless you want to stay in a single resort for a couple of weeks which is definitely not the sort of holiday I usually have with my wife (and there's no point for me flying for about 12 hours to lie on a sun lounge for 2 weeks, I'd rather go to Greece, Tenerife or similar places much closer to home). We have considered fast-tracking a driving licence for my wife, who still hasn't one, but we realised that it wouldn't be feasible on time and it would anyway require to cancel my current reservation and pay for a new one (you can't just switch names). My wife will anyway work towards her driving licence because it will be the only viable way to make use of our car in the UK for quite a while, but for our summer holidays it's not an option.

We'll see. For the ACRO it's reasonably too early because I'm still on bail waiting for the court hearing so I guess I should at least wait for the sentence. I don't expect miracles or additional tragedies, but I guess that I need this whole legal thing to settle down before paying at least 45 quid for my ACRO.

The more I go through all this, the more I understand time is tight but I still have enough "drive" (nearly a pun here...) to go through this obstacle race. I might give up somewhere along this process, and I will update this thread later on.

Many thanks,
Z
 
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