Dependence on alcohol? Prove it!

[Kinky John Fowler]

Hi all,

Bottom Line Up Front - I'm looking for a professional who can contest and disprove my GP's claim of a history of dependence on alcohol. Preferably without carrying a fee (however unlikely).

Background
I'll cut a verrrrrry long story as short as I can to save eyestrain and aid understanding. In December 2022, the DVLA revoked my car license on the grounds of alleged dependence on alcohol. This was following an application for an HGV license earlier in the year, the medical for which highlighted a couple of non alcohol related matters. The DVLA, needing to investigate these other matters, including my mental health wrote to my GP for a report. On said report, my GP ticked a box which stated that I have a history of dependence on alcohol. They based this on medical notes from a previous practice which said that for a short period in early 2021, I was drinking over the government recommended limit of 14 units per week. This was short-lived due to workplace stress. On this tick alone, the DVLA refused an HGV license as, am sure you know, if there is even a sniff of previous dependence on alcohol, the applicant must have been abstinent for a minimum of 3 years. In the case of misuse, the applicant must have consumed fewer than 14 units per week for 1 year. They revoked my car license on the same grounds.

My doctor wrote to the DVLA contesting dependence and I was invited to reapply for my HGV license. That ship (lorry) having sailed (driven off), I decided to apply for my car license alone as it's more important that I get that back. I reapplied in April of this year. After a lot of correspondence, phone calls, medicals, private blood tests and ultrasounds (at great expense) and the involvement of my GP, the DVLA finally wrote (to my MP) in August saying that they were content that I met the standards where alcohol is concerned. Phew thought I. I'll get my license back very soon. They just needed to write to my GP and ask them to complete an M2 form regarding my mental health. A different doctor completed the report and ticked a box that said that I've been dependent on alcohol, in spite of the efforts of others at the same surgery to rectify this and correct the error and...here we are again, the DVLA won't grant a license until they are content that the claim of dependence is correct or false.

Although the GP that completed the original report disputed his own record (the tick in the box) claims that he is a specialist in dependence, there is no record of any such qualification or experience. By the by, at least they were good enough to correct their error. The second GP to complete the latest report has ignored the first GP. Their claim is that they can only report what is in my medical records.

Never in my records has there been any mention of dependence on alcohol
Never have I experiences seizures, withdrawal symptoms, black out etc. associated with alcohol
Never have I been arrested or charged with a DUI
Never has any doctor referred me to specialist services or put in place a treatment/care plan

All because.... I'm not, and never have been dependent on alcohol!! I would concede to a period of possible misuse during heavier than normal drinking in early 2021, but since that was nearly 3 years ago, it shouldn't affect either a car or an HGV license application.

So the question is, how do I prove this?! With no evidence to back the claim of dependence on alcohol up, only a tick in a box on the form, how can they continue to report that there is? The onus is on them to prove but GPs being GPs and this being private work (they get paid to complete DVLA reports), you never get to see one to talk to, they close ranks and play the 'I'm clinically trained, are you?....' card.

Does anybody have a similar experience? Do you know who I can turn to for clinical advice? Did you have success as contesting a similar case?

There is some light at the end of the tunnel, albeit a 60w bulb and a very long tunnel. The DVLA have contested the near constant contradictions between reports from my GP surgery and as there has been no change in my drinking (I have been abstinent by choice, to prove a point mainly since December 2022) since my licence was revoked nearly a year ago, I should be in a position to get my license back soon - I hope. However, I still want to pursue a case against my GP for what has been 12 months of hell.

Thank you in advance.

 

[craig121]

Hi all,

Bottom Line Up Front - I'm looking for a professional who can contest and disprove my GP's claim of a history of dependence on alcohol. Preferably without carrying a fee (however unlikely).

Background
I'll cut a verrrrrry long story as short as I can to save eyestrain and aid understanding. In December 2022, the DVLA revoked my car license on the grounds of alleged dependence on alcohol. This was following an application for an HGV license earlier in the year, the medical for which highlighted a couple of non alcohol related matters. The DVLA, needing to investigate these other matters, including my mental health wrote to my GP for a report. On said report, my GP ticked a box which stated that I have a history of dependence on alcohol. They based this on medical notes from a previous practice which said that for a short period in early 2021, I was drinking over the government recommended limit of 14 units per week. This was short-lived due to workplace stress. On this tick alone, the DVLA refused an HGV license as, am sure you know, if there is even a sniff of previous dependence on alcohol, the applicant must have been abstinent for a minimum of 3 years. In the case of misuse, the applicant must have consumed fewer than 14 units per week for 1 year. They revoked my car license on the same grounds.

My doctor wrote to the DVLA contesting dependence and I was invited to reapply for my HGV license. That ship (lorry) having sailed (driven off), I decided to apply for my car license alone as it's more important that I get that back. I reapplied in April of this year. After a lot of correspondence, phone calls, medicals, private blood tests and ultrasounds (at great expense) and the involvement of my GP, the DVLA finally wrote (to my MP) in August saying that they were content that I met the standards where alcohol is concerned. Phew thought I. I'll get my license back very soon. They just needed to write to my GP and ask them to complete an M2 form regarding my mental health. A different doctor completed the report and ticked a box that said that I've been dependent on alcohol, in spite of the efforts of others at the same surgery to rectify this and correct the error and...here we are again, the DVLA won't grant a license until they are content that the claim of dependence is correct or false.

Although the GP that completed the original report disputed his own record (the tick in the box) claims that he is a specialist in dependence, there is no record of any such qualification or experience. By the by, at least they were good enough to correct their error. The second GP to complete the latest report has ignored the first GP. Their claim is that they can only report what is in my medical records.

Never in my records has there been any mention of dependence on alcohol
Never have I experiences seizures, withdrawal symptoms, black out etc. associated with alcohol
Never have I been arrested or charged with a DUI
Never has any doctor referred me to specialist services or put in place a treatment/care plan

All because.... I'm not, and never have been dependent on alcohol!! I would concede to a period of possible misuse during heavier than normal drinking in early 2021, but since that was nearly 3 years ago, it shouldn't affect either a car or an HGV license application.

So the question is, how do I prove this?! With no evidence to back the claim of dependence on alcohol up, only a tick in a box on the form, how can they continue to report that there is? The onus is on them to prove but GPs being GPs and this being private work (they get paid to complete DVLA reports), you never get to see one to talk to, they close ranks and play the 'I'm clinically trained, are you?....' card.

Does anybody have a similar experience? Do you know who I can turn to for clinical advice? Did you have success as contesting a similar case?

There is some light at the end of the tunnel, albeit a 60w bulb and a very long tunnel. The DVLA have contested the near constant contradictions between reports from my GP surgery and as there has been no change in my drinking (I have been abstinent by choice, to prove a point mainly since December 2022) since my licence was revoked nearly a year ago, I should be in a position to get my license back soon - I hope. However, I still want to pursue a case against my GP for what has been 12 months of hell.

Thank you in advance.

Am certainly no professional but I can offer you a little advice since very similar scenario I went through 10 years ago!
Firstly get down to your GP practice and demand a full subject access on your medical notes dating back as long as you require, don't take any crapp from the practice manager about filling in forms waiting blah blah weeks!

I actually stood in the waiting room until they printed every page I needed there and then, reason being am actually confused why the 2nd GP hadn't picked up on your original saga with the practice and seen the resolve #within your notes
You seem to be doing most things right but getting independent reports isn't the way forward you DO need your own GP's support when it comes to allegations of dependency or missuse, these can be contested however it does look like your episode back in 2021 would normally come under missuse requiring you to have controlled drinking below 14 units per week for 6 months !

Regarding your HGV that's a whole different ball game and they could revoke that licence for 3 years if they deem you high risk.
However way you look at things it should of been imperative you kept in touch with the GP practice and allowed them to take several regular LFT.
This isn't documented or stated by the dvla it's just the easiest quickest way to prove abstinence on your part.
Having said that you've done most things right certainly by remaining abstinent and you proved them wrong first time around so guess its pretty much the same road once again but this time armed with your Medical history and the failings of the GP practice.

If your looking to take legal action against the practice it would be very difficult and expensive unfortunately!

P,S why do you think your HGV licence has sailed it's not difficult to get back providing you can prove abstinence and comply with the system.

 

[safama76]

Hi all,

Bottom Line Up Front - I'm looking for a professional who can contest and disprove my GP's claim of a history of dependence on alcohol. Preferably without carrying a fee (however unlikely).

Background
I'll cut a verrrrrry long story as short as I can to save eyestrain and aid understanding. In December 2022, the DVLA revoked my car license on the grounds of alleged dependence on alcohol. This was following an application for an HGV license earlier in the year, the medical for which highlighted a couple of non alcohol related matters. The DVLA, needing to investigate these other matters, including my mental health wrote to my GP for a report. On said report, my GP ticked a box which stated that I have a history of dependence on alcohol. They based this on medical notes from a previous practice which said that for a short period in early 2021, I was drinking over the government recommended limit of 14 units per week. This was short-lived due to workplace stress. On this tick alone, the DVLA refused an HGV license as, am sure you know, if there is even a sniff of previous dependence on alcohol, the applicant must have been abstinent for a minimum of 3 years. In the case of misuse, the applicant must have consumed fewer than 14 units per week for 1 year. They revoked my car license on the same grounds.

My doctor wrote to the DVLA contesting dependence and I was invited to reapply for my HGV license. That ship (lorry) having sailed (driven off), I decided to apply for my car license alone as it's more important that I get that back. I reapplied in April of this year. After a lot of correspondence, phone calls, medicals, private blood tests and ultrasounds (at great expense) and the involvement of my GP, the DVLA finally wrote (to my MP) in August saying that they were content that I met the standards where alcohol is concerned. Phew thought I. I'll get my license back very soon. They just needed to write to my GP and ask them to complete an M2 form regarding my mental health. A different doctor completed the report and ticked a box that said that I've been dependent on alcohol, in spite of the efforts of others at the same surgery to rectify this and correct the error and...here we are again, the DVLA won't grant a license until they are content that the claim of dependence is correct or false.

Although the GP that completed the original report disputed his own record (the tick in the box) claims that he is a specialist in dependence, there is no record of any such qualification or experience. By the by, at least they were good enough to correct their error. The second GP to complete the latest report has ignored the first GP. Their claim is that they can only report what is in my medical records.

Never in my records has there been any mention of dependence on alcohol
Never have I experiences seizures, withdrawal symptoms, black out etc. associated with alcohol
Never have I been arrested or charged with a DUI
Never has any doctor referred me to specialist services or put in place a treatment/care plan

All because.... I'm not, and never have been dependent on alcohol!! I would concede to a period of possible misuse during heavier than normal drinking in early 2021, but since that was nearly 3 years ago, it shouldn't affect either a car or an HGV license application.

So the question is, how do I prove this?! With no evidence to back the claim of dependence on alcohol up, only a tick in a box on the form, how can they continue to report that there is? The onus is on them to prove but GPs being GPs and this being private work (they get paid to complete DVLA reports), you never get to see one to talk to, they close ranks and play the 'I'm clinically trained, are you?....' card.

Does anybody have a similar experience? Do you know who I can turn to for clinical advice? Did you have success as contesting a similar case?

There is some light at the end of the tunnel, albeit a 60w bulb and a very long tunnel. The DVLA have contested the near constant contradictions between reports from my GP surgery and as there has been no change in my drinking (I have been abstinent by choice, to prove a point mainly since December 2022) since my licence was revoked nearly a year ago, I should be in a position to get my license back soon - I hope. However, I still want to pursue a case against my GP for what has been 12 months of hell.

Thank you in advance.

I'm in a very similar situation after applying for a PCV licence. Long story short. DVLA medical team contacted my GP. After a 3 month wait I got a letter from them saying no bus licence and we'll also revoke your car licence for 12 months due to alcohol dependence! I had a bit of a blip due to stress and was drinking more than I should've been and mentioned it to my Dr over a phone call. This was a Dr I've never met before. At no point did my Dr tell me I was dependent. Anyway, fast forward almost 4 months. I sent a letter of appeal and got my MP to send a letter. The DVLA haven't acknowledged any of them which doesn't surprise me in the slightest. In the meantime I've recorded my last drink with the Dr surgery and have been for 1 LFT.

 

[Kinky John Fowler]

Am certainly no professional but I can offer you a little advice since very similar scenario I went through 10 years ago!
Firstly get down to your GP practice and demand a full subject access on your medical notes dating back as long as you require, don't take any crapp from the practice manager about filling in forms waiting blah blah weeks!

I actually stood in the waiting room until they printed every page I needed there and then, reason being am actually confused why the 2nd GP hadn't picked up on your original saga with the practice and seen the resolve #within your notes
You seem to be doing most things right but getting independent reports isn't the way forward you DO need your own GP's support when it comes to allegations of dependency or missuse, these can be contested however it does look like your episode back in 2021 would normally come under missuse requiring you to have controlled drinking below 14 units per week for 6 months !

Regarding your HGV that's a whole different ball game and they could revoke that licence for 3 years if they deem you high risk.
However way you look at things it should of been imperative you kept in touch with the GP practice and allowed them to take several regular LFT.
This isn't documented or stated by the dvla it's just the easiest quickest way to prove abstinence on your part.
Having said that you've done most things right certainly by remaining abstinent and you proved them wrong first time around so guess its pretty much the same road once again but this time armed with your Medical history and the failings of the GP practice.

If your looking to take legal action against the practice it would be very difficult and expensive unfortunately!

P,S why do you think your HGV licence has sailed it's not difficult to get back providing you can prove abstinence and comply with the system.

Thank you Craig121,

Sound advice. I've got all of the details from both the GP and the DVLA through regular Subject Access Requests. They are bored of me but I think they both realise now that I'm not going to skulk off quietly into the night and accept what has happened. I presented the British Medical Associations document which states that access to records must be granted. The woman behind the counter near as told me to f**k off as they were busy and it takes too long to do, fill in a form and send it in. It was clear that she was intent on being a pain in the hoop and I didn't want to add to the case, so I filled in the form and submitted it the same day. For anybody else reading this looking for the BMA's doc on Subject Access Requests, you can find it here:

Access to health records

How to handle requests, including subject access requests, requests from third parties such as insurers and the police and requests for records of deceased patients.

www.bma.org.uk

The BMA state that a maximum of 28 days. My surgery took 3 months. I s**t thee not! On the second GP picking up on it, she did. She acknowledged that the first GP had written a letter, even read it in front of me and attached it to the form she sent but STILL contradicted him. When all of this kicked off last year, I tried to change GP surgeries which can be done, but in this instance the other practice wouldn't accept me so I'm stuck with this lot. I will accept temporary misuse in 2021 and indeed at the time, owing to a workplace medical stopped drinking for around 12 months and thereafter only drank small amounts socially. There is evidence of this in LFT's done and my medical records.

I think the biggest problem here is that the GP, in my non-clinical opinion has made a gross error in reporting, which is what I'm pursuing. This whole 12 months has been incredibly difficult and expensive, and I'm not prepared to let it slide. This is what GPs and people in medical practice hide behind - the "we know what we're doing, you don't - trust your doctor" approach. We've repeatedly seen from the news that these people are not infallible.

I hope to have this situation resolved, very soon. Thank you for your advice, experience and time.

All the best

 

[Kinky John Fowler]

I'm in a very similar situation after applying for a PCV licence. Long story short. DVLA medical team contacted my GP. After a 3 month wait I got a letter from them saying no bus licence and we'll also revoke your car licence for 12 months due to alcohol dependence! I had a bit of a blip due to stress and was drinking more than I should've been and mentioned it to my Dr over a phone call. This was a Dr I've never met before. At no point did my Dr tell me I was dependent. Anyway, fast forward almost 4 months. I sent a letter of appeal and got my MP to send a letter. The DVLA haven't acknowledged any of them which doesn't surprise me in the slightest. In the meantime I've recorded my last drink with the Dr surgery and have been for 1 LFT.

Hi,

I'm sorry to hear that you're in a similar situation. It's an interesting point you make around not telling the doctor that you are dependent and something that I've been thinking about as part of my case. The fact is, it is not for you to inform them that you are, or aren't dependent. Through my research, being declared dependent on alcohol, for which there are certain tests and measures is in no way the same as one saying that one drinks a bit too much or declaring oneself an alcoholic.

If you tell a medical professional that because of stress you've increased your drinking, the onus is on them to provide you with support and if they deem that you are dependent, they must provide you with an appropriate course of action, depending on the level and pattern of your drinking. Sure, you are responsible for being self-disciplined and sticking to that course (which if you are dependent (I'm not for one minute saying you are by the way), is seldom cold turkey without a solid plan in place - alcohol withdrawal I'm led to believe is not fun and is in fact very dangerous).

These doctors must start taking responsibility for their actions. For instance, when they ask how much you drink and they want to know it in units - how do you know? Do you look at how many units are in an alcoholic drink? I never did!

LFT's are a great test however, they should not be taken in isolation (apparently). My LFT's show mild fatty liver disease. I'd be frankly amazed if they didn't. I'm overweight and have been for several years and in my youth and through to my early 30's drank more than was recommended, there being a drinking culture in all of the places that I've worked, lived and socialised. This is what I want an independent professional to look at. I get what people are saying about LFT's and insisting on blood tests etc. Each GP is different and some will be more supportive than others. I've requested blood tests from my GP. They did one early doors and when I asked for an updated one, they stated that because I don't have a condition that requires regular LFT's, they won't request them. They've just alleged that I am/have been dependent on alcohol. Do you see the problem, because they clearly don't!

I'll update you on what happens from here. Thank you for sharing your experience. Hopefully, if they haven't already done so they will invite you to reapply for your license. If you're anything like me, avoid the news channels like the plague. Stories of actual DUI / drug driving cases where drivers have been banned for 12 months get me going. It's right that they've been banned and revocation is not the same as a ban/removal of license however, having been in this position for knocking on 12 months now, the punishment feels the same, for no crime committed. This is the injustice of the situation for all in a similar position. By admitting to your GP that you've had a bit too much to drink during a difficult time, you're being chastised. Carry on fighting.

All the best and good luck. Keep us posted on your progress.

 

[PatientlyWaiting]

Can you put a complaint in to your local health ombudsman?

I've been having issues with my GP practice too. You can also complain to the parliamentary health ombudsman

Feel for you. It's awful when you are at the mercy of incompetence

 

[Kinky John Fowler]

Can you put a complaint in to your local health ombudsman?

I've been having issues with my GP practice too. You can also complain to the parliamentary health ombudsman

Feel for you. It's awful when you are at the mercy of incompetence

Hi,

Yes you can, and no you can't. I've been in touch with the Ombudsman. The complaint that I've filed with my GP must be at a point of exhaustion, that is to say I have to allow the GP every opportunity to explain themselves, try to put things right (unlikely) and then, if there is no other course of action that the GP can follow and I'm still not satisfied, I can get the Ombudsman involved. Important to note that the Ombudsman has no ability to say what compensation should be awarded etc. only that the GP should do x and y.

I've given the GP every opportunity to respond. A challenge is doing all of this around a full time job. It's truly exhausting and I think, designed that way to wear you down so that you don't try to fight it or if you do, you give up. I'm fortunate that I dont have other people reliant upon me. I will take these people to task, even if it's the last thing I ever do.

 

[PatientlyWaiting]

Hi,

Yes you can, and no you can't. I've been in touch with the Ombudsman. The complaint that I've filed with my GP must be at a point of exhaustion, that is to say I have to allow the GP every opportunity to explain themselves, try to put things right (unlikely) and then, if there is no other course of action that the GP can follow and I'm still not satisfied, I can get the Ombudsman involved. Important to note that the Ombudsman has no ability to say what compensation should be awarded etc. only that the GP should do x and y.

I've given the GP every opportunity to respond. A challenge is doing all of this around a full time job. It's truly exhausting and I think, designed that way to wear you down so that you don't try to fight it or if you do, you give up. I'm fortunate that I dont have other people reliant upon me. I will take these people to task, even if it's the last thing I ever do.

Yes I get what you're saying

The local ombudsman told me to just complain again to the GP practice for a reconsideration if I wasn't happy.

Both institutions (DVLA and GP practice)have you stuck in a Kafkaesque nightmare

I don't have people reliant on me per se but it massively impacted my self employment

Keep persevering though !

 

[Ritchie1957]

Hi all,

Bottom Line Up Front - I'm looking for a professional who can contest and disprove my GP's claim of a history of dependence on alcohol. Preferably without carrying a fee (however unlikely).

Background
I'll cut a verrrrrry long story as short as I can to save eyestrain and aid understanding. In December 2022, the DVLA revoked my car license on the grounds of alleged dependence on alcohol. This was following an application for an HGV license earlier in the year, the medical for which highlighted a couple of non alcohol related matters. The DVLA, needing to investigate these other matters, including my mental health wrote to my GP for a report. On said report, my GP ticked a box which stated that I have a history of dependence on alcohol. They based this on medical notes from a previous practice which said that for a short period in early 2021, I was drinking over the government recommended limit of 14 units per week. This was short-lived due to workplace stress. On this tick alone, the DVLA refused an HGV license as, am sure you know, if there is even a sniff of previous dependence on alcohol, the applicant must have been abstinent for a minimum of 3 years. In the case of misuse, the applicant must have consumed fewer than 14 units per week for 1 year. They revoked my car license on the same grounds.

My doctor wrote to the DVLA contesting dependence and I was invited to reapply for my HGV license. That ship (lorry) having sailed (driven off), I decided to apply for my car license alone as it's more important that I get that back. I reapplied in April of this year. After a lot of correspondence, phone calls, medicals, private blood tests and ultrasounds (at great expense) and the involvement of my GP, the DVLA finally wrote (to my MP) in August saying that they were content that I met the standards where alcohol is concerned. Phew thought I. I'll get my license back very soon. They just needed to write to my GP and ask them to complete an M2 form regarding my mental health. A different doctor completed the report and ticked a box that said that I've been dependent on alcohol, in spite of the efforts of others at the same surgery to rectify this and correct the error and...here we are again, the DVLA won't grant a license until they are content that the claim of dependence is correct or false.

Although the GP that completed the original report disputed his own record (the tick in the box) claims that he is a specialist in dependence, there is no record of any such qualification or experience. By the by, at least they were good enough to correct their error. The second GP to complete the latest report has ignored the first GP. Their claim is that they can only report what is in my medical records.

Never in my records has there been any mention of dependence on alcohol
Never have I experiences seizures, withdrawal symptoms, black out etc. associated with alcohol
Never have I been arrested or charged with a DUI
Never has any doctor referred me to specialist services or put in place a treatment/care plan

All because.... I'm not, and never have been dependent on alcohol!! I would concede to a period of possible misuse during heavier than normal drinking in early 2021, but since that was nearly 3 years ago, it shouldn't affect either a car or an HGV license application.

So the question is, how do I prove this?! With no evidence to back the claim of dependence on alcohol up, only a tick in a box on the form, how can they continue to report that there is? The onus is on them to prove but GPs being GPs and this being private work (they get paid to complete DVLA reports), you never get to see one to talk to, they close ranks and play the 'I'm clinically trained, are you?....' card.

Does anybody have a similar experience? Do you know who I can turn to for clinical advice? Did you have success as contesting a similar case?

There is some light at the end of the tunnel, albeit a 60w bulb and a very long tunnel. The DVLA have contested the near constant contradictions between reports from my GP surgery and as there has been no change in my drinking (I have been abstinent by choice, to prove a point mainly since December 2022) since my licence was revoked nearly a year ago, I should be in a position to get my license back soon - I hope. However, I still want to pursue a case against my GP for what has been 12 months of hell.

Thank you in advance.

All I can say is bloody hell and poor you. Absolutely horrifying story. X