Worried and confused

Convicted Driver Insurance

worried1978

New Member
I was a bit silly on Friday - Had 4 pints and stupidly drove home. Making no excuses for my actions, as I know I'm fully in the wrong.

Had an accident with an oncoming car in a country lane - front offside to front offside collision.

Police were called (I was one of the people that called them)

By the time the police arrived I was very dazed and in Shock - I blew a high reading on a breath test (not that I was ever told it was anything other than very high)

After that point I was put in an ambulance and sent to hospital as my blood pressure had hit about 200

(I'll use estimates of times, as I had no watch or phone on me)

The Accident happened at about 7pm
Breath test would have been around 8pm
Got to the hospital for about 10/1030
On the way to the hospital had a massive wee (like about 2 litres worth)
saw by a nurse about 10:30 had the hospital blood test and a quick urine sample for the nurse
Then there was a long wait, the Police doctor for the official blood test didnt turn up until about 1:30
After about 15/20 minutes of three failed attempts to draw blood (very painful, but seemed like my veins weren't playing ball) he gave up
then the police said I would need to do a urine sample instead.... so they made me drink lots of water, and just before I was to go for a wee, the hospital sent in their own doctor for a checkup....
we then got back to the urine sample..... needed to down vast quantities of water before anything would happen...
So my wee sample ended up be at about 2:30 in the morning - around 7 and a half hours after the accident.

I've got two questions really:

1) Would such a long elapsed time, mean that I'm highly likely to pass the urine test
2) After doing a bit of reading "it seems" the police might not have done the urine test correctly - everything I've read suggests you have to do 2 samples within an hour, discard the first, fill back up with water and then use the second - but that isn't what happened.


3rd question I guess - I was arrested and bailed for a section 5 offence - I'm assuming as I haven't been arrested for any kind of dangerous driving offence, that they cant later accuse me of that?
 
Regarding any alternative charges, many people have accidents whilst over the limit, it is very rare that they are prosecuted for careless driving as well. Dangerous driving is quite a difficult charge to prove, and the Crown have very little interest in pursuing it if they feel that they will obtain a conviction for drink driving.

I cannot say whether your urine test will be under the limit, or even give an estimate as we have not initial reading to go from. Obviously the longer you go between the time of the incident and the time of the test the more likely it is that the result will be under the limit. If you have only had 4 pints then I would not expect this to give you a high reading and I would not think that the specimen would come back over the limit.

However what you will have to be cautious of is the prosecution trying to carry out a back calculation to determine what the likely reading would have been at the time of the accident. They would normally interview you if this as the case and ask about what food drink etc. you had consumed that day, although in some instances they will do the calculation without this.

The procedure for obtaining a urine sample is to take one sample and discard it. They should then obtain a second sample within an hour, although there is no requirement to let you drink more water in-between. The police should then also split this sample in two and offer you one of the specimens.
 
Thanks for the quick reply Sean.


So do you think that by the sounds of it the urine test may have been incorrectly administered?

As there was definitely only 1 sample taken - not 2 within a 1 hr window.

They then took that sample, split it in two and then sealed them.

I've been led to believe that they only do the back calculations if you claim a hip flask defence - as thats not the case, I'm hoping that its just a standard test result.

I'm currently at the arrested and bailed stage, until Dec 9th (or unless they write to say that the sample was under the limit).... I'm assuming that the below the limit means anything lower than an equivalent of 0.08 BAC?
 
If they have only ever taken one specimen of urine from you within the 1 hour time frame then this would be a significant procedural breach and would almost certainly give you strong grounds for a defence.

Back calculations are simply a calculation to determine what your reading would have been at a certain time. In relation to hip flask defences this is based upon what your reading would have been at the time of driving, they are also able to simply calculate what your reading would have been several hours ago. The reason they do not often do this for your type of case is that it gives a range of what the reading may have been, which can make the prosecutions job difficult.

Yes the limit in urine cases is a reading of 107, so anything over this and you will be charged.
 
So the saga goes on.


The urine sample came back at about 120, so I was brought back into the station for questioning.


I laid out the scenario to the duty solicitor and she advised me at the time to "no comment" the entire interview, and then make a personal decision at the first court hearing as to whether to plead guilty or not guilty based on the content of the MG/DD/C form.


So at the police station I was charged and bailed to court.


The first court hearing was scheduled for Monday 11th Jan.


Upon arrival I was referred to the duty solicitor and again went through the scenario and we had a chance to look at the completed MG/DD/C form.


The relevant sections on the form are C20 which sets out the time that the decision to use urine was made at 1:50am, the office then read the statement:


I therefore require you to provide me with two specimens of urine within one hour for alcohol analysis......
Failure to provide either of the specimens will render you liable to prosecution.


(key part being specimens - plural)




Section C29 then sets out when both samples were taken and by whom.


The entries on the form where:


First sample@ 11;30 by medical staff
second sample@ 2:20 by PC blahblah


So the short version is that they decided to use urine sample @ 1:50 and 2 samples from that point are require within a 1hr window
The first sample was recorded over 2hrs before the requirement was decided on
The second sample was recorded nearly 3hrs after the first sample


So clearly the correct procedure was not followed.




The duty solicitor agreed with my summary, he went and spoke to the prosecutor. After a further 3 hr wait at the court I was re-bailed (without having stepped inside the courtroom) to return tomorrow afternoon. This was explained to me as a chance for the cps to investigate why the correct procedure had been ignored.


So I'm now nervously awaiting my visit to court tomorrow afternoon, to see what happens next.


From the research I've done - I "think" (fingers very crossed) that the case will probably get dropped.


As far as I can see, the urine sample cant be now used, so there is no proof? or evidence to use for conviction


Is there anything else I should be concerned over for tomorrow?




Obviously from the whole experience I've used it as a wake-up call and I now rely solely on taxi's if even 1 drink is on the cards.
 
It is indeed a very odd situation but trying to make an assessment on the prosecutions likely actions is impossible without having been privy to the discussions that happened at Court. The best course of action at this stage is to attend Court tomorrow and see what happens with the case. If the prosecution discontinue the matter then it is over and done with. If they decide to proceed with the case then you are able to enter a not guilty plea based upon the procedural irregularities and the case will be listed for trial.
 
All over and now feel hugely relieved.

I received a call from the court duty solicitor this morning will the news that I didn't need to attend today as upon review of the procedural mishap the case was being thrown out.

Very welcome news at my end, as it means (1) I'll keep my license, so no grief getting to work etc.. and (2) the insurance will now payout to replace my car.

Huge life lesson learnt and feel very very lucky.

Thanks.
 
It is certainly a good result, for the sake of completeness I would advise calling the Court just to request written confirmation that the case was withdrawn. You can then provide a copy of this to your insurers if any queries are raised.
 
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